[00:00:01] OK, GREAT. WELL, IT'S THREE O'CLOCK AND WE HAVE A QUORUM AND STAFF IS READY. ALL RIGHT, OK, I'LL CALL THIS MEETING TO ORDER. WELCOME, EVERYBODY TO THE LANDMARK COMMISSION WORKSHOP, MONDAY, APRIL 12, 2021. AND WE'LL START OFF WITH ROLL CALL. COMMISSIONER, CLICK PRESENT, COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN, PRESENT COMMISSIONER HUDDLESTON PRESENT, COMMISSIONER LANG IS NOT PRESENT. COMMISSIONER MCLEAN, PRESENT,[INAUDIBLE] DID YOU SAY PATTERSON. I DID. PRESENT. COMMISSIONER STETZEL-THOMPSON, PRESENT COMMISSIONER SWANSON, PRESENT, COMMISSIONER WOOD. NOT PRESENT, I'LL MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT IF ANY OF THOSE FOLKS JOIN US, STAFF PRESIDENT OR MYSELF, CATHERINE GORMAN, THE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR IN HISTORIC PRESERVATION OFFICER, AND DONNA FAIRWEATHER, ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY. I ALSO EXPECT TIM TIETJENS WILL BE JOINING US. OK. OK, ANYBODY HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST TODAY, NO. OK, WE ALL LOOK, WE ALL LOOK PRETTY GOOD. WE START OFF WITH NOT SO CERTIFIED DISCUSSION ITEM. FIRST ONE IS USE OF ALTERNATIVE MATERIAL FOR PORCH FLOORS. I'LL JUST GIVE A BRIEF INTRODUCTION TO THIS TOPIC. IT CAME UP A COUPLE OF MEETINGS AGO. WE HAD A CASE IN WHICH THE APPLICANTS WERE PROPOSING TO USE AN ALTERNATIVE MATERIAL FOR PORCH FLOORS. AND THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION DURING THAT CASE AND SOME INTEREST OF THE COMMISSION TO HOLD A WORKSHOP TO TALK ABOUT THE USE OF ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS FOR PORCH FLOORS SPECIFICALLY. I WAS THEN CONTACTED BY JOHN MCNATT. JOHN IS A FORMER LANDMARK COMMISSIONER AND CURRENT MEDIA MEMBER, GOT EXTENSIVE WOODWORKING KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE WITH HISTORIC HOUSES. AND HE VOLUNTEERED TO COME TO THE COMMISSION TODAY TO DISCUSS THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF WOODS THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND THE DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS FOR FLOORS. SO I'D LIKE TO SAY A BIG THANK YOU TO JOHN FOR TAKING HIS TIME OUT TO JOIN US THIS AFTERNOON, AND I'LL TURN IT OVER TO HIM. MCNATT BEGINS AND THANK YOU AS WELL, JOHN, WE'RE NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT ANY SPECIFIC PROPERTIES DURING THIS WORKSHOP. SO IT'S JUST GOING TO BE ALL GENERAL INFORMATION ON A GENERAL BASIS. BUT PLEASE DO NOT STATE OR CALL OUT A SPECIFIC PROPERTY AT ALL DURING THIS WORKSHOP. THANK YOU. ABSOLUTELY. I'M GOING TO MAKE THE ALTERNATIVE WOODS PROBABLY MORE CONFUSING THAN YOU WANT BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME OPTIONS. I LISTENED TO THE MEETING ABOUT THE DIALOG, ABOUT THE DIFFERENT THE PORCH DECKING PORCH FLOOR. AND I WANT TO CLARIFY THAT THERE ARE IN THE TRADE, THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ITEMS, DECKING AS GENERALIZED AS ANY TYPE OF WOOD. TYPICALLY THAT IS AN S4S OR HAS FOUR SQUARE EDGES THAT CAN BE USED FOR ALMOST ANY DECK APPLICATION. WHAT I'M GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT WITH THE PORCH FLOORING, WHICH WOULD BE A TONGUE AND GROOVE PRODUCT, WHICH IS JUST IT'S WHAT'S BEEN ON THESE OLD HOMES FOR OBVIOUSLY A CENTURY OR SO. AND I HAVE BEEN RATHER FRUSTRATED MYSELF WITH TRYING TO FIND PRODUCTS THAT I CAN USE ON MY OWN PROJECTS. THE COMMENT WAS MADE ABOUT THE TREATED PINE IN THE MEETING. THERE ARE TWO OPTIONS ON TREATED PINE FLOORING. WELL, ONE OF THEM IS TO USE A THREE QUARTER INCH THICK PORCH BOARD AND THOSE USUALLY YIELD ABOUT THREE INCHES. AND WITH WHICH IS THE STANDARD OF WHAT WE'RE USED TO SEEING. YOU CAN ALSO GO TO A FIVE QUARTER AND FIVE QUARTER STARTS GETTING CONFUSING, FIVE QUARTER. ALL THAT MEANS THAT'S ACTUALLY A TRUE ONE INCH THICK PIECE OF LUMBER. SO IT'S A LITTLE BIT HEAVIER DUTY. THESE TREATED PINE BOARDS ARE GETTING WORSE AND WORSE IN QUALITY. THEY ARE GETTING WORSE AND WORSE AND JUST GENERAL SELECTION. TWENTY YEARS AGO, A TREATED PINE FLOOR BOARD LOOKED LIKE A GRADE ONE LUMBER WITH NO KNOTS VERY SPLIT'S OR CHECKS. NOWADAYS, IT'S PRETTY ATROCIOUS. IT IS THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE FLOOR TO USE ON A PORCH. I ALSO WANT TO POINT OUT ONE MORE THING. MOST OF THE CONSTRUCTION METHODOLOGY OF THESE OLD HOMES IS THE COLUMNS THAT YOU SET UP THAT SIT OUT FRONT, SIT ON TOP OF THE PORCH BOARDS. SO THERE IS THIS WONDERFUL ROOM FOR ROT AND BACTERIA GROWTH AND INSECTS TO HARBOR BETWEEN THE PORCH BOARDS THE THE PORCH FLOOR AND THE BOTTOM OF A COLUMN, SOME WOODS WILL WORK BETTER THAN OTHERS. [00:05:01] THERE AS FAR AS WOODS ARE CONCERNED, OBVIOUSLY, FINDING LONGLEAF PINE IS OLD LONGLEAF PINE. I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS A GENERAL KNOWLEDGE OR NOT, BUT THE SAME THE SAME PINE THAT IS BEING SOLD AT HOME DEPOT AS WALL. STUDS IS THE EXACT SAME SPECIES OF PINE THAT IS SO COVETED. IT'S CALLED THE ANTIQUE PINE OR LONGLEAF PINE, SAME SPECIES JUST GROWN IN TOTALLY DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENTS, IN TOTALLY DIFFERENT ERAS. TO FIND THE OLD PINE, THE TRUE REDDISH PETINA THAT WE'RE CALLING THE ANTIQUE PINE IS VERY HARD TO GET. THERE IS A GROUP ON THE MAINLAND THAT SELLS A LOT OF WHAT THEY'RE CALLING ANTIQUE PINE. AND IT IS FROM MY GOING THERE MULTIPLE TIMES, MOST OF THIS WOOD IS WOOD FROM THE 1930S, 40S AND UP TO THE 50S. IT DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME CHARACTERISTICS AS THE STUFF THAT WE PULLED OUT OF HOMES AND SALVAGE. AND I KNOW THAT THIS HAS BEEN UTILIZED PRETTY EXTENSIVELY FOR TRYING TO MAKE OLD PINE FLOORBOARDS TO MATCH WHAT'S THERE. THE PROBLEM WITH SOME OF THESE OLDER PINES IS THE AMOUNT OF RESIN THAT IS STILL IN THEM, ESPECIALLY EVEN THE VERY OLD STUFF. WE JUST COMPLETED A JOB USING VIRGIN'S SINKER LOGS FROM THE 80S. MY SHOP WAS SMELLED LIKE PINE O PINE. THE MACHINERY WAS ACTUALLY DRIPPING WITH RESIN BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF SAP THAT WAS IN THERE, THESE OLDER PINES DO HAVE A DISADVANTAGE AND THAT IS THEY DO NOT HOLD PAINT WELL, THEY DON'T UNLESS THEY ARE SEASONED AND WEATHERED AND STICKERED OFF, WHICH MEANS STACKED OFF PROPERLY FOR YEARS. TAKING AN OLD PINE LOG, SAWING IT INTO A FLOOR PLANK IS NOT GOING TO BE THE BEST IF THE INTENTION IS FOR IT TO BE STAINED. I'VE ALSO BOUNCED AROUND PEOPLE BOUNCED THROUGHOUT THE YEARS ASKING ABOUT CYPRESS. CYPRESS IS GONE. THE OLD TIDEWATER CYPRESS THAT WE GREW IN THE SWAMPS THAT HAS THE UNBELIEVABLE LONGEVITY THAT'S STILL AROUND TODAY IS NOT EXISTENT. WHAT THEY'RE CALLING TIDEWATER CYPRESS NOWADAYS IS ANY CYPRESS TREE THAT GROWS WITHIN 50 MILES OF WATER. THAT'S A LONG WAY TO CALL SOMETHING TIDEWATER, CYPRESS, TIDEWATER CYPRESS WILL ACTUALLY ROT OUT FASTER THAN NO. TWO YELLOW PINE. THE MOST DURABLE CYPRESS THAT IS OUT THERE IS WE CAN GET IT'S VERY HARD TO GET BECAUSE IT'S A PACIFIC NORTHWEST WOOD ITS CALLED YELLOW ALASKAN CEDAR. IT'S NOT A CEDAR. IT'S ACTUAL REAL NAME IS CALLED NOOTKA FALSE CYPRESS. AND IT IS THE MOST IT IS A CYPRESS, A TRUE CYPRESS, BUT THEY CALL IT YELLOW ALASKAN CEDAR. THIS CAN BE PURCHASED, ACQUIRED AND USED FOR FLOORING. BUT THIS IS GOING TO BE [INAUDIBLE] ONCE WE GOT PAST TREATED PINE FROM THE LUMBER YARD EVERYTHING'S EXPENSIVE, EVERYTHING. SO THERE IS AN OPTION OF USING THE YELLOW ALASKAN CEDAR. IT WOULD HAVE TO BE PURCHASED THROUGH SOMEONE LIKE MASON'S MILL OR A HARDWOOD SPECIALTY PRODUCT COMPANY AND THEN MILLED, BECAUSE THERE ARE VERY, VERY FEW OPTIONS ON READY MADE STORE. YOU CAN GO IN AND BUY TONGUE AND GROOVE FLOORING. FAR AS I KNOW, THE ONLY OPTIONS TO BUY READY MADE TONGUE AND GROOVE FLOORING IS THE TREATED PINE AZEK, WHICH IS A COMPOSITE. AND THERE'S ONE OTHER COMPANY CALLED FORTRESS, WHICH IS ANOTHER COMPOSITE THAT'S SIMILAR TO AZEK. I'VE USED IPE ON A JOB THAT WE DID TONGUE AND GROOVE FLOORING FOR. IPE SOUNDS LIKE A WONDERFUL, SOLVE-ALL PROBLEM. IT IS EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE, UNBELIEVABLY DURABLE, DURABLE TO THE POINT THAT YOU CAN'T RUN A SCREW THROUGH IT TO PUT IT DOWN, YOU HAVE TO PRE-DRILL A HOLE AND THEN RUN THE SCREW. IPE AND KERUING AND SOME OF THESE OTHER TROPICAL HARDWOODS DO NOT TAKE PAINT. THEY'RE SO FILLED WITH OILS THAT YOU CAN'T PAINT THEM, WHICH COULD BE A DISADVANTAGE. BUT THE DURABILITY FACTOR OF THESE IS JUST OFF THE CHART. YOU CAN GET THE SAME STIFFNESS OUT OF A HALF INCH BOARD THAN YOU CAN THREE QUARTER INCH LUMBER IN PINE OR OTHER WORDS LIKE THAT. ANOTHER OPTION IS A NAME BRAND PRODUCT, WHICH I FIND COMICAL, IS CALLED ACCOYA PINE, AND IT IS READILY AVAILABLE. IT CARRIES A 50 YEAR ABOVE GROUND WARRANTY, 25 YEAR WARRANTY IF IT HAS GROUND CONTACT WITH FRESH WATER. THAT'S THE THAT ASPECT ON THERE. AND THAT COMES FROM A RADIATA PINE OUT OF NEW ZEALAND. AND SO AUTOMATICALLY THE PINE COMING FROM NEW ZEALAND AND HAVING THE SPECIAL CHEMICAL PROCESS THAT'S ASSOLATED LUMBER IN IT HAS NO COPPER. [00:10:02] IT HAS NO NO BIOCIDES IN IT. IT IS A WONDERFUL PRODUCT, BUT IT IS IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE THAN DOING AN IPE DECK. WHICH I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH IPE DECKS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A DOLLAR A FOOT FOR THE TREATED PINE IPE FOR THE SAME BOARD CAN GET UP TO SIX DOLLARS A LINEAR FOOT. SO IPE IS SIX TIMES THE COST OF A PINE FLOOR AND ACCOYA IS GOING TO BE EVEN HIGHER THAN THAT. UM AZEK THE COMPOSITE MATERIAL IS SOMETHING THAT I AM NOT A FAN OF, BUT I'M ALSO VERY INTERESTED IN BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH IT IS EXPENSIVE, IT DOES SATISFY A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS OR IT SATISFIES SOLUTIONS TO THE PROBLEMS THAT ALL THESE OTHER THINGS HAVE. IT IS A COMPOSITE MATERIAL, AND I KNOW THAT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE OLD HOMES. BUT AT SOME POINT, I THINK THE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO NEED TO REVISIT THIS IDEA AND SEE WHAT IS AVAILABLE VERSUS WHAT COULD BE USED TO REPAIR THESE THINGS. ANY QUESTIONS SO FAR? I HAVE A QUESTION. IS THAT KILN DRIED AFTER TREATMENT? [INAUDIBLE] IS THAT ANY IMPROVEMENT? MOST OF THE TREATED LUMBER THAT YOU CAN BUY, THAT IS A PORCH FLOOR AND SHOULD BE KILN DRIED RIGHT AFTER IT BACK UP, IT WOULD BE TREATED AFTER MACHINING IT. SO THE WOOD IS RUN THROUGH THE MOTOR AND THEN IT'S TREATED. AND THEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH THE QUALITY OF WHOEVER DOES THE KILN DRYING TO EITHER OR THE DOING THE TREATMENT TO EITHER HAVE A KILN DRIED THERE OR THEY WILL AIR DRY IT. AIR DRYING IS ACTUALLY CHEAPER THAN KILN DRYING. SO THAT'S THAT STUFF IS OFTEN SKIPPED. AND THAT'S WHY A LOT OF THIS THIS PINE TREATED PINE PORCH FLOORING COMES IN SUPERFLAT. AND WE HAVE USED THE TREATED PINE PORCH FLOORING FOR YEARS. WHEN WE DO THIS, WE MAKE SURE THAT WE KNOW AT LEAST A MONTH IN ADVANCE THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE DOING THIS AND WE WILL GET THE LUMBER AND WE WILL STICKER IT OFF, WHICH MEANS STACKING IT WITH LITTLE SMALL STICKS TO ALLOW AIR CIRCULATION TO TRY TO LET IT AIR DRY NATURALLY. ONCE YOU TAKE THEM OUT OF THE STICKER'S, THEY STILL ARE JUST BOAT ALL OVER THE PLACE AND THEY'RE PROBLEMATIC TO WORK WITH. IF YOU TAKE A TREATED LUMBER OR ANY TYPE OF MATERIAL AND YOU SHAPE IT AFTER IT'S BEEN TREATED, YOU LOSE A GOOD DEAL OF THE TREATMENT PROCESS. IF I HAVE A PIECE OF WOOD THAT'S THIS BIG AND I NOW AND IT'S PRESSURE TREATED AND I RUN IT THROUGH MY MACHINE AND I CUT IT IN HALF AND I SHRINK IT TO MAKE ANOTHER PRODUCT, THOSE THREE SIDES ARE NO LONGER TREATED. SO I'VE LOST THE ADVANTAGE OF HAVING THAT INITIAL PRESSURE TREATMENT. [INAUDIBLE] I FIND IT SO DIFFICULT TO FIND A DECENT LUMBER. IT'S JUST RIDICULOUS AND IT'S ALSO SATURATED. WHEN YOU GET IT, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO USE IT OR EVEN NAIL IT DOWN AT ALL. WELL, BEING IN THIS BUSINESS FOR, I DON'T KNOW, TWENTY NINE YEARS NOW AND WORKING ON ALL DIFFERENT TYPES OF VICTORIAN HOMES, I KNOW THAT THERE ARE JOBS THAT REQUIRE MORE ATTENTION THAN OTHERS. THERE ARE THE SUPER CONTRIBUTING HOMES WHERE THE HOMEOWNER OR THE THE ENTITY THAT OWNS IT HAS FUNDS TO BE ABLE TO DO WHAT'S EVER NECESSARY. AND THEN THERE'S A LOT OF HOUSES IN GALVESTON THAT DON'T HAVE THIS LUXURY WITH THE FACT MY OPINION THAT THE TREATED PINE IS GETTING WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THERE IS IN IT THAT IS A COMPARABLE AND COST AND EASE TO GET NEXT TO THAT TREATED PINE. SO I DON'T KNOW IF WE'RE RUNNING ON LIMITED RESOURCES AGAIN, IF OTHER MATERIALS, WHETHER THEY BE WOOD OR COMPOSITE, COULD BE CONSIDERED TO BE USED ON PROJECTS GOING FORWARD. THAT'S MY OPINION. OK, AND ALSO I THINK IT HAS MAYBE SOMETHING TO DO ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHERE IT IS. SAY WE HAVE A PORCH OR FLOORING THAT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, A FOOT AND A HALF OFF THE GROUND VERSUS GOING UP TO EIGHT FEET IN THE AIR. YOU'VE GOT SOME DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS ACTING ON THAT PRODUCT. SO WOULD ONE BE BETTER THAN THE OTHER IN THOSE DIFFERENT CONDITIONS. THE TROPICAL HARDWOODS ARE GOING TO EXCEL CLOSER TO THE GROUND BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT [00:15:04] THEY JUST DON'T ABSORB MOISTURE WHEN YOU HAVE A PORCH AND TYPICALLY THE PORCH HAS A BAND AROUND THE BOTTOM AND YES, SOME ARE SIX INCHES OFF THE GROUND. SOME ARE EIGHT FEET OFF THE GROUND. THE THE OLD PINE, THE STUFF THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THAT'S THE 1930S, 40S, 50S, IS ACTUALLY GOING TO PERFORM, I THINK, WORSE THAN THE NEW TREATED PINE BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO HOLD ANY TYPE OF FINISH. IT STILL HAS SO MUCH RESIN IN IT, BUT IT STILL ALLOWS MOISTURE TO PENETRATE IT. AND WE HAVE DONE REPAIR WORK WITH OLD PINE BEFORE. WE'VE DONE REPAIR WITH NEW PINE. AND ACTUALLY THAT STUFF IN THAT THAT 1940S, 50S RECLAIMED DOES NOT PERFORM AS WELL AS NUTRITIVE PINE AND CERTAINLY DOESN'T PERFORM AS WELL AS OLD TREATED PINE. SO ANYBODY ELSE GOT A QUESTION FOR JOHN. [INAUDIBLE] SO WHAT IS THIS TREX, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A CERTAIN BROWN IS THAT I KNOW THATS FABRICATED, RIGHT? YEAH, OK, I AM I'M NOT A FAN OF TREXS, TREXS OF ALL THE COMPOSITE MATERIALS, I THINK IS THE ONE THAT IS LACKING THE MOST. THE ONLY PRODUCT THAT I'M AWARE OF THAT IS A COMPOSITE TONGUE AND GROOVE IS THE AZEKS. AND AZEKS IS EXTREMELY DURABLE. IT COMES IN DIFFERENT COLORS AND THE COLOR IS THE SAME COLOR ALL THE WAY THROUGH. SO WHEN YOU CUT IT ON THE ENGRAIN, IT'S GOING TO HAVE THE SAME COLOR WHEN YOU RIP IT TO GET TO FIT SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HAVE THE SAME COLOR. FORTRESS ISN'T THERE. THEIR PRODUCT IS MORE OF THE FINISHES ENCAPSULATED AROUND THE CORE AND THEY USE A LOT OF DIFFERENT FASTENING SYSTEMS INSTEAD OF JUST THE OLD FASHIONED TONGUE AND GROVE NAIL SYSTEM. BUT WE WOULD WANT TO HAVE TONGUE AND GROOVE ON A HISTORICAL HOUSE. RIGHT. SO YOU WANT TO LOOK FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS THAT. CHARACTERISTIC. I AGREE 100 PERCENT, AND I THINK, LIKE I SAID, THE ONLY TWO THAT I KNOW THAT ARE AVAILABLE, JUST BEING ABLE TO WALK INTO THE STORE AND BUY AS A READY MADE PRODUCT IS TREATED PINE AND AZEK. THE OTHERS I HAVE A BILL. I CAN GO. I CAN KNOW ZEBRA WOULDN'T MAKE A FRONT DECK OUT OF IT. IT'S. YEAH. OK. SO SO, JOHN, I HAVE A QUICK QUESTION. SO THIS BODY KIND OF WANTED SOME DIRECTION IN THE TYPES OF MATERIALS, AND YOU'VE BEEN VERY GOOD ON EXPLAINING THE DIFFERENCES. BUT IF THERE ARE ONLY TWO CHOICES AND YOU DON'T LIKE TREX AZEKS AND TREATED PINE, CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT ANY LIMITING FACTORS? IF THE GROUP WERE TO SAY WE ONLY WANT AZEKS OR WE ONLY WANT WELL TREATED, PINE IS JUST TREATED PINE IS NOT NECESSARILY A BRAND NAME AND I DON'T KNOW IF AZEKS IS A BRAND, A BRAND NAME OR IS JUST A TYPE. SO I MEAN THEY CAN'T PROMOTE ONE OR THE OTHER. WHAT WOULD BE SOME LANGUAGE THAT YOU WOULD RECOMMEND, IF ANY? AND I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY THEY WOULD NEED TO BE A TONGUE AND GROOVE PRODUCT. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN VISUALLY SEE WALKING UP TO ANY HOUSE BECAUSE MOST OF THE PORCHES ARE PERPENDICULAR TO THE STREET IS TO SEE THAT SAME PROFILE IS THERE. I WOULD SUGGEST, IF YOU WANT, I COULD I COULD BRING I KNOW A COUPLE OF YOU I COULD BRING A SAMPLE OF THE AZEKS FOR Y'ALL TO LOOK AT WHEN YOU MEET ONE DAY, LOOK AT IT AND SEE WHAT EXACTLY IT IS. IF I WAS TO SAY THE REQUIREMENTS WOULD BE NUMBER ONE, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A TONGUE AND GROOVE PRODUCT. THAT WOULD BE NUMBER ONE. I AM NOT OPPOSED TO USING AZEK. I WISH THERE WERE BETTER PINE OPTIONS. I WISH THERE WERE BETTER NATURAL BUILDING MATERIAL OPTIONS. BUT THEY'RE DIMINISHING. OF THE TWO I WOULD SAY THAT EITHER ONE WOULD. THIS IS A BIG STEP. I MEAN, I REMEMBER BEING ON LANDMARK, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT VINYL [00:20:03] WINDOWS. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THINGS AND THE MOMENT YOU OPEN UP SOMETHING YOU OPEN UP A NEST OF EITHER PROBLEMS OR YOU SOLVE THEM. SO I GET THAT. I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT DECISION. THAT'S WHY I'M TELLING YOU WHAT, I KNOW A LOT OF THINGS. YOU CAN'T SEE ME, SO I CAN'T RAISE MY HAND. CAN Y'ALL SEE ME? OH, NO. OK, SO I OBVIOUSLY RUN THE RISK OF BEING LABELED A. KIND OF PERSON THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MONEY. WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M RETIRED AND SO WE LIVE ON A FIXED INCOME AND I'M GOING TO ARGUE AND SAY THAT'S NOT QUITE FACTUAL, BUT WE'LL PUT THAT ASIDE. I APPRECIATE THE NEED TO LOOK FORWARD, BUT I'M NOT NECESSARILY AGREEING WITH JOHN MCNATT'S OPINION. THIS IS HARD TO FIND AND IT DOESN'T HELP THE PRODUCT. AND IF YOU'RE WILLING, I'M HAPPY TO SHOW YOU MY FRONT PORCH, WHICH WAS PUT IN FOUR YEARS AGO, HAS NINE FOOT LONG STANCES AND STILL HOLDING ITS ORIGINAL PAINT. AND IT'S BEAUTIFUL. AND ABOUT FIVE FEET OF IT IS EXPOSED TO WATER. IT DOES NOT UNDER A ROOF, BUT IT WAS PROPERLY INSTALLED. IT WAS PROPERLY TREATED BEFORE IT WAS PAINTED. BIG MISTAKE AS PEOPLE PUT PRIMER ON THIS WOOD AND THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. AND THEN I HAVE ANOTHER THIRTY SIX, THIRTY SEVEN LINEAR FEET OF PORCH THAT HAS THE EXACT SAME WOOD WAS PUT ON THREE YEARS AGO. NOW IT GETS A LOT MORE TRAFFIC BECAUSE IT'S IN THE BACK YARD. THE DOGS RUN UP AND DOWN AND THEY SCRATCH IT WITH THEIR NAILS. SO NOW WE HAVE TO DO A LITTLE BIT OF MAINTENANCE ON IT. BUT I CAN LITERALLY TAKE YOU OUT WITH MY CAMERA AND SHOW YOU BOTH PORCHES. AND BOTH OF THESE WERE DONE WITH RECLAIMED LUMBER BECAUSE AGAIN, I AGREE WITH YOU, JOHN. THE TREATED PINE, EVEN IN THE THICKER VERSION, DOESN'T LAST. IT JUST DOESN'T. AND IF PEOPLE ARENT INSTALLING IT PROPER WITH A BULL NOSE AND WITH A RIGHT DRAIN OFF OF IT, THEN IT ROTS VERY QUICKLY. AND I SEE SO MANY TIMES WHERE THE PORCHES THAT THE TIMBERS AREN'T INSTALLED LONG ENOUGH, YOU KNOW, EXTENDING OUT FROM THE PORCH. IT DOESN'T HAVE A COVE UNDERNEATH. IT DOESN'T HAVE A BULL NOSE IN IT. ALL OF THOSE ARE THINGS THAT INVITE MOISTURE BACK ONTO THE WOOD AGAIN. IT WONT DRAIN PROPERLY, BUT WITHOUT HAVING THE OPTION. THREE AND FOUR YEARS AGO, I DID EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT. AND THAT WAS I WENT TO ONE SOURCE AND FOUND RECLAIMED LUMBER. AND THEN ANOTHER TIME I WENT GOT ANOTHER TWO THOUSAND SQUARE FEET OF RECLAIMED LUMBER TO REDO THE BACK PORCH BECAUSE THE YELLOW PINE WAS FAILING. AND SO TWO TIMES TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES, THREE AND FOUR YEARS AGO, PROPERLY INSTALLED, PROPERLY TREATED. AND THEY LOOK AS GOOD NOW AS THE DAY WE PUT THEM DOWN. AND I WOULD BEG TO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A COST COMPARISON. YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT THE IPE WOODS BEING VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE, THE SIX DOLLARS PER SQUARE FOOT. I KNOW I CAN EASILY SEE THAT, PARTICULARLY THE TEAM G PRODUCTS, THEY'RE EVEN MORE EXPENSIVE IN THE DECKING'S. BUT I'M CURIOUS AS TO WHAT THIS PRODUCT IS. COMPARE TYPICALLY COST WISE TO THE RECLAIMED LUMBER AND WHAT IS THE LONG TERM DURABILITY, BECAUSE ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS YOU MENTIONED IS THAT YOU CAN'T PAINT THE RECLAIMED LUMBER. WELL, I TAKE YOU OUT RIGHT NOW AND SHOW YOU WHERE IT WAS PAINTED THREE AND FOUR YEARS AGO AND IT LOOKS FINE. SO I THINK A LOT OF TIMES THAT, YOU KNOW, OWNER ERROR AND THE WAY THEY'RE TREATING THIS. BUT I'VE HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH THIS RECLAIMED LUMBER OUT THERE. IT'S PERFORMED BEAUTIFULLY. BUT THE PRODUCTS THAT THE OTHER PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT, THOSE CAN'T BE PAINTED EITHER. THEY COME IN THIS COLOR AND YOU HAVE TO KIND OF MATCH THAT COLOR. THAT'S ONE PROBLEM. THEN THE OTHER THE OTHER CONCERN I HAVE IS ABOUT THIS PRODUCT MAY HAVE A SYNTHETIC COMPONENT TO IT. HOW DOES IT YEAH, I KNOW THIS IS A QUESTION, BUT MAYBE WE CAN HAVE MS. [INAUDIBLE]. JUST ANSWER THAT BEFORE WE SPLIT ON TO THE OTHER QUESTION THAT YOU HAVE. WELL ITS JUST THE TWO QUESTIONS AND I'M DONE TALKING.[LAUGHER] SO ONE IS HOW DOES THE SYNTHETIC PRODUCT PERFORM NEXT TO, LET'S SAY, THE FRAMING MEMBERS? DOES IT DOES IT HAVE A TENDENCY TO HOLD MOISTURE ANY MORE OR LESS THAN WHAT A NATURAL PRODUCT DOES? BECAUSE, AGAIN, ALL OF THESE PORCHES HAVE THESE CELLS AND THESE JOIST THAT WE WOULD THEN [00:25:04] HAVE THIS PRODUCT ON TOP OF. SO WHAT IS THE LONG TERM PICTURE OF THAT LOOK LIKE? BECAUSE THAT IS A CONCERN AS WELL. I FIRST OF ALL, I AM A HUGE FAN OF RECLAIMED LUMBER. WE RECLAIMED LUMBER WITH MY COMPANY ALL THE TIME. WE USE RECLAIMED LUMBER AS OFTEN AS WE CAN OF OF ALL OF THESE OPTIONS IN HERE. AND ANY ONE OF THESE WOULD MAKE A GOOD FLOORING. EVEN THE ACCOYA, THE YELLOW ALASKAN CEDAR, THE IPE IF IT'S A WOOD PRODUCT, THAT'S A GOOD WOOD, I THINK IT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE USED. AS FAR AS THE RECLAIMED LUMBER THAT GOES BACK TO WHAT IS THE AGE OF THE RECLAIMED LUMBER, IS IT 1880S RECLAIMED LUMBER, IS IT 1950S RECLAIMED LUMBER THAT'S ON YOUR FLOOR? I DON'T KNOW. THE 1930S, 40S, 50S LUMBER DOES NOT HOLD PAINT AS WELL AS THE VERY OLD STUFF AND ACTUALLY THE NEW STUFF. AND I DON'T KNOW WHY. IT'S JUST THERE'S, THERE'S SOMETHING WITH THE, THE RESIN THAT'S IN THE, IN THAT LUMBER. IT DOES NOT HOLD PAINT THAT WELL. RECLAIMED LUMBER IS A WONDERFUL THING. IT IS ALSO A DIMINISHING RESOURCE. IT IS BECOMING HARDER AND HARDER TO GET. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE HAVING WITH RECLAIM THE RECLAIMED LUMBER MARKET IS THAT SO. OK, SO ALL THESE WAREHOUSES WERE TORN DOWN. PEOPLE WANTED RECLAIMED LUMBER AND THEY BOUGHT IT UP AND IT'S BEEN USED ALL OVER THE PLACE. BUT WHEN YOU GO THROUGH A LUMBER AND YOU PICK THE GOOD STUFF YOU WANT AND THAT'S WHAT YOU KEEP AND YOU LEAVE THE STUFF WITH ALL THE NAIL HOLES AND THE OLD ELECTRICAL CONDUIT AND EVERYTHING BACK IN THE LUMBER BIN, I'M SAYING IS IN THE LOCAL MARKET. AND I'M SAYING HOUSTON, SOUTH TEXAS, ALL OF THE REALLY GOOD OLD RECLAIMED LUMBER IS MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO GET. THE STUFF THAT I SEE, LIKE WHEN I GO TO CLARKES LUMBER COMPANY, I DON'T I DON'T WANT TO RUN IT THROUGH MY MACHINE BECAUSE ALL IT TAKES IS ONE NAIL, YOU KNOW, AND I'VE GOT TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS OF CUTTER. AZEKS AGAIN, I'M NOT PUSHING AZEK I'M JUST IT'S AN OPTION. I LIKE IT. IT IS BEEN PROVEN TO HOLD UP TO THE SALT AIR OF THE GULF COAST COMMUNITY. IT'S BEEN USED EXTENSIVELY ON DECKS IN SIDING .I HAVE SOME ON MY HOUSE. I DON'T LIVE IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. I THINK THE PRODUCT IS PHENOMENAL. IT DOES NOT RETAIN MOISTURE. IT DOES NOT MOLD. IT DOESN'T HAVE THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT OTHER COMPOSITE MATERIALS HAVE. IF I WAS TO ADVISE AND SAY THIS IS WHAT I WOULD ALLOW, THEN I WOULD SAY I WOULD ALLOW EITHER A TREATED PINE OR SOMEONE TO CUSTOM MILL OUT OF A WOOD THAT WOULD WORK WELL IN THE GULF COAST, EITHER IPE, THE NOOTKA FALSE CYPRUS, THE ACCOYA PINE, KERUING. I KNOW WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE OFF INTO THE NAMES OR PICK ONE COMPOSITE MATERIAL THAT THERE WAS THAT ONE COMPOSITE MATERIAL. I WOULD SAY AZEK FILLS THE VOID BETTER THAN ANY OTHER COMPOSITE BY FAR. AND HOW LONG HAS AZEK BEEN ON THE MARKET? I MEAN, HOW HOW FAR BACK DATA DO WE HAVE ON ITS PERFORMANCE? I WANT TO SAY THAT AZEK IS TWENTY PLUS YEARS OLD. SO, OK, THAT'S GOOD TO KNOW. SO AS WE SAW SOME OF THOSE OTHER PRODUCTS HAVE HAD SOME PROBLEMS WITH CUPPING, WITH TWISTING, WITH CHAFFING. SO WE REALLY HAVEN'T SEEN THAT KIND OF ISSUES WITH THIS PARTICULAR PRODUCT THE AZEK. THERE IS A BUILDING PRODUCT CALLED ADVANCED REPAIR TECHNOLOGY, AND WE USE THIS SYSTEM WEATHER-STRIPPING, WINDOWS IN GALVESTON, HOUSTON, YOU NAME IT. AND ALL IT IS, IS WEATHER-STRIPPING SYSTEM WHERE THE PARTINGS STOP IS TAKEN OUT AND YOU REPLACE THE PARTINGS STOP WITH NEWFELD INSTALLATION. THE PARTING STOP THAT THEY USE IS AIZA. AND I KNOW THAT GHC HAS NO PROBLEM WITH THIS. THIS COMPOSITE AZEKS PARTINGS STOP AND THEIR APPLICATION. SO AS FAR AS THE ACTUAL THE PRODUCT ITSELF, THE AZEK IT IS BEING USED IN HISTORICAL PRESERVATION IN ONE SMALL ASPECT OUT THERE. AND CAN IT BE SANDED? CAN IT BE TRIMMED AND SANDED LIKE WOOD? SOMETHING LIKE SO, YOU KNOW, FOR INSTANCE, ON OURS ONE OF THOSE KIND OF LOST DETAILS IS THAT YOU REALLY SHOULD BULL NOSE THOSE OTHERS PORCH ENDS, RIGHT? YOU SHOULD BULL NOSE THAT WOOD. BUT MY POINT IS THAT WHEN YOU'RE WALKING BY THE HOUSE AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT A PORCH THAT HAS THIS PRODUCT ON IT THE TONGUE AND GROOVE, WOULD THE AVERAGE PERSON EVEN KNOW THAT [00:30:01] THAT WAS A MANUFACTURED PRODUCT. DOES IT LOOK THAT NATURAL? IT DOES HAVE A SIMULATED WOOD GRAIN ON THE FACE OF IT. THE OTHER SIDE IS SMOOTH. THE SIMULATED WOOD GRAIN TO ME LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE THAT. A SIMULATED WOOD GRAIN. SO YOU WOULD SEE THE TONGUE AND GROOVE CONNECTIONS LIKE YOU WOULD ON THE TRADITIONAL PORCHES. FROM THE END YES, YOU WOULD. OK, OK. NOT FROM THE WELL YOU WOULDN'T SEE IT FROM THE TOP BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE, RIGHT THAT'D BREAKING AND ENTERING. I THINK BEFORE ANY DECISIONS ARE MADE THAT THIS IS AZEK PRODUCT SHOULD BE PUT IN EVERYONE'S HAND TO LOOK AT SCRATCH WITH YOUR FINGERNAIL THUMP ON THE GROUND, TOSS AROUND, BECAUSE IF I OWNED AN OLD HOME, I WOULD WANT TO EITHER USE AN EXOTIC TROPICAL WOOD OR I WOULD WANT TO USE AZEK. AND I WOULD WANT TO USE AZEK, I THINK WOULD HAVE A MUCH MORE BEAUTIFUL APPLICATION ON PORCHES OVER LOWER GALLERIES. I DO BECAUSE OF IT BEING SO CONSISTENT, NOT EXPANDING, CONTRACTING AS MUCH AS REAL WOOD, I THINK YOU'D END UP WITH A MORE WEATHER TYPE DECK ON THE SECOND FLOOR. JOHN WHAT WAS THE PRICE COMPARISON BETWEEN THAT AND TREATED PINE, FOR INSTANCE. AZEK IS GOING TO BE PROBABLY FOUR TIMES THE PRICE OF A TREATED PINE. [INAUDIBLE] WHAT'S THE DURABILITY OF THE AZEK LIKE WE SAID 20 YEARS. COULD SOMEONE CONCEIVABLY HAVE A PORCH THAT LASTED 20 YEARS? I DON'T SEE WHY NOT. I MEAN, THAT'S REALLY LIKE THE STANDING SEEM ROOFS, RIGHT? THEY COST A FORTUNE, BUT THE LAST 50 YEARS. SO I'M NOT GOING TO PUT ANOTHER ROOF ON FOR A WHILE. DO YOU DO YOU BY CHANCE KNOW OF ANYBODY IN THE DOWNTOWN AREA, PERHAPS [INAUDIBLE] THAT ACTUALLY HAS THAT PRODUCT ON THEIR PORCH? THAT WOULD NOT WOULD MIND US COMING BY AND TAKING A LOOK AT IT, BECAUSE WHEN YOU PUT SOMETHING IN MY HAND, I MEAN, ALL THE THINGS YOU'RE TELLING ME SOUND GREAT, RIGHT? BUT I CAN'T BECAUSE IT'S NOT ALLOWED. THE CONSERVATION DISTRICTS ALLOW IT [LAUGHTER] CONSERVATION DISTRICTS ALLOW IT. THERE'S A LOT OF POCKETS OUTSIDE OF SILK STOCKING THAT AREN'T IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT THAT MAY HAVE IT. THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING, BECAUSE EVERYTHING YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT SOUNDS GREAT AND ME GOING AND VISITING A RESIDENCE THAT HAS IT DOWN. YEAH, YOU KNOW WHAT? THAT LOOKS WONDERFUL. THAT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS. IT'S KIND OF A DEAL BREAKER FOR ME. IT'S A YOU KNOW, IT'S A. I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY THAT ARE IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT OR IN THE DOWNTOWN AREA. YEAH. I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY I KNOW THAT IT'S BEEN USED EXTENSIVELY ON THE WEST END OF THE ISLAND AS DECKING EITHER SCREWED FROM THE BOTTOM OR FACE NAILED FROM THE TOP. SO THERE ARE HOUSES I KNOW THAT HAVE HAD IT UP. BUT THE TONGUE AND GROOVE PRODUCT IS NOT BEING UTILIZED HERE THAT I'M AWARE OF. COULD YOU SPELL IT FOR ME SO WHEN I LOOK IT UP ON THE INTERNET, I KNOW THAT THE RIGHT THING A-Z-E-K. AND HOW MANY DIFFERENT LIKE TONES WOULD YOU SAY COME IN LIKE FOUR, SIX, EIGHT, TEN DIFFERENT TONES? YES, AND I DO WANT YOU TO KNOW IF YOU ARE FAMILIAR. TREX WAS MENTIONED EARLIER. THIS IS NOT TREX. IT'S JUST NOT IT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT. TREX, TREX IS SO BAD IT HAS TO BE PUT ON A 12 INCH CENTER ON THE SUPPORTING BOARDS UNDERNEATH IT. IT IS NOT A DURABLE PRODUCT. WOW. YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THERE WAS A HOME ACTUALLY THAT WAS ON THE HOME FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. AND THEY HAVE THIS AZEK ON THE BACK OF IT, ON AN ADDITION, ON THE BACK OF IT. AND I REMEMBER LOOKING AT IT GOING, OH, MY GOD, THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE TONGUE AND GROOVE WOOD. THAT LOOKS FABULOUS. I THINK THAT MAY I MAY ACTUALLY REACH OUT TO THEM AS AN ARCHITECT THAT THE HOME BELONGED TO. SO I MAY REACH OUT TO THEM AND INQUIRE, IS THAT AN AZEK, WOULD YOU ALLOW US TO COME BY AND LOOK AT IT BECAUSE YOU CAN ACCESS IT FROM THE BACK OF THE PROPERTY. BUT IT WAS A BEAUTIFUL PRODUCT. I JUST DON'T KNOW WHICH PRODUCT IT WAS. YOU JUST JOGGED MY MEMORY. AND IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, THERE IS A BEAD PRODUCT THAT WAS THAT'S MADE BY AZEK THAT WAS USED AS THE TRANSITIONAL LEARNING CENTER ON THE SITE OFF OF 61ST STREET. ANYONE HAS ACCESS TO THE TRANSITIONAL LEARNING CENTER. I BELIEVE THAT IS AZEK PRODUCT THAT'S AROUND THE PERIMETER OF THAT. I MEAN, I PREFER THAT WE ALWAYS HAVE WOOD, BUT IT'S NOT REALISTIC. FORTUNATELY, THE STUFF I MEAN, WE HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF I MEAN, THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF PRODUCTS IN THE HARDILONG. THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE ALLOW ALL OF THEM, BUT WE DO ALLOW SOME OF THEM. [00:35:01] SO MAYBE ONE OF THOSE THAT WE DECIDE ON A COUPLE OF THESE THAT LOOK REALLY GOOD AND, YOU KNOW, TO SAY LET'S RUN WITH A COUPLE OF THESE PRODUCTS AND SEE WHERE THAT COMES. JOHN, YOU SAID THAT THE AZEKS HAS A SIMULATED WOOD GRAIN FINISH AND A SMOOTH FINISH. CAN YOU USE THE SMOOTH FINISH UP AS THE WALKING SURFACE? NO, I WOULD NOT. I THINK IT'D BE TOO SLIPPERY. SO YOU CAN ALSO USE THE [INAUDIBLE] THEY ALSO SELL IT AS A RAIN WALL SO YOU CAN PUT IT VERTICALLY ON THE OUTSIDE OF A HOUSE TO HAVE A LINEAR AND THEN YOU PROBABLY WANT A MORE CONTEMPORARY SETTING. WE'D WANT TO USE THE SMOOTH SIDE. CATHERINE BROUGHT UP A GOOD POINT THAT IS OFTENTIMES WHEN WE WHEN WE'RE USING STAIRS, WE LIKE TO HAVE A THICKER, HEAVIER TREADS THAN LIKE A TONGUE AND GROOVE PRODUCT. SO IN THAT SAME AZEK LINE, WOULD THEY HAVE SOMETHING THAT WOULD ACCOMMODATE THAT KIND OF APPLICATION WHERE IT LOOKS MORE LIKE A JOIST TYPE, MAYBE 10 INCH BY ONE AND A HALF OR ONE INCH THAT COULD BE USED AS THE TREADS TO A STAIRS, BUT THEN COMPLEMENTS THE COLOR OF WHAT'S BEING PUT DOWN? I DO KNOW THAT IN THE COLOR WHITE, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE OTHER COLORS THAT THEY DO HAVE. AND WE HAVE USED A TRUE ONE INCH BY 12 INCH BOARDS WELL THEY'RE NOT BOARDS BECAUSE I GUESS ITS NOT WOOD PRODUCT. SO, YES, I MEAN, I KNOW YOU CAN GET ONE INCH THERE. OK, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN GET IN THE MATCHING COLORS OF THE DECKING MATERIAL. OK, JOHN, I'M STILL TRYING TO AND MAYBE I MISSED THIS. SOMEBODY WALKED IN MY OFFICE EARLIER. CAN YOU GIVE A DESCRIPTION OF WHAT THE AZEKS IS? BECAUSE I HEARD YOU SAY IT'S DIFFERENT FROM TREX. TOTALLY DIFFERENT. BUT CAN YOU GIVE A DESCRIPTION OR DEFINE THE TYPE OF A PRODUCT AZEK IS SO THAT IF THIS COMMISSION WERE TO COME UP WITH SOME GUIDELINES, THEY COULD JUST BE GENERALLY IT IS A PRODUCT MADE BY SUCH AND SUCH OR COMBINING THESE TYPES OF MATERIALS OR HAS A HEARTINESS OF THIS OR YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING. CAN YOU. YEAH, I COULD TRY. IT'S A COMPOSITE STRUCTURE THAT'S MADE OF PLASTIC. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT THAT'S WHAT ALL THESE COMPOSITE THINGS BOIL DOWN TO IS WHAT TYPE OF PLASTIC IS IT USED POLYSTYRENE POLYETHYLENE. THE AZEK WOULD BE A VERY REFINED CORE. SO THE AZEK WOULD LOOK LIKE SLICING INTO A PIECE OF. I CAN'T THINK OF A GOOD EXAMPLE IN THE MDF MEDIUM DENSITY FIBERBOARD IS A VERY FINE, FINE, REFINED TEXTURE ON THE INSIDE AS OPPOSED TO PARTICLEBOARD BEING LARGER CHUNKS OF COMPOSITE GLUED TOGETHER. THIS WOULD BE THE MDF OF DECKING. THAT SOUNDS REALLY CORNY. I APOLOGIZE. BUT IF WHEN YOU CUT IT, IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE BIG STRANDS OF PRODUCTS CLUMPED TOGETHER, IT'S VERY HOMOGENOUS. IT'S GOT A VERY DENSE VENEER AROUND THE PERIMETER OF IT. THAT'S VERY DURABLE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY, DONNA. I WISH I'M NOT AN AZEK SALESPERSON, SO I'M NOT WELL VERSED IN ALL OF THE LINGO. YEAH, THAT'S WHY I WAS HOPING TO GET SOME OF THOSE QUALITIES THAT YOU'RE MENTIONING WITHOUT NECESSARILY ADVOCATING A BRAND NAME. AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO GIVE THE COMMISSION SOME DIRECTION. I MEAN, I HEARD SOME REALLY GOOD THINGS OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID IN DESCRIBING THIS PRODUCT, ACTUALLY. SO THANK YOU. YOU'RE WELCOME. AND I THINK THAT AZEK OF ALL THE COMPOSITS WOULD BE THE UPPER ECHELON OF COMPOSITE MATERIALS. I HAVE A QUICK QUESTION, I JUST GOOGLED AZEK AND WE'RE LOOKING AT THE PICTURES ONLINE LOOKS REALLY PRETTY, BUT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF THEM, THEY HAVE A BOARD, A PERIMETER BOARD THAT RUNS PERPENDICULAR TO THE TIMBER'S TOWARDS THE EDGE OF THE I'M OK WITH THAT. BUT IS THAT KIND OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THAT YOU REALLY WANT TO RUN IT UP AGAINST A PREFAB PIECE? NOT TRY TO CUT IT HIDE THE TONGUE AND GROOVE. AND THAT WOULD BE AGAINST WHAT WE'RE WHAT THIS COMMISSION WOULD BE WANTING TO DO IS TRY TO HAVE THINGS LOOK STORE. I'M NOT A FAN OF RUNNING THOSE BANDS ON THE EXTERIOR OF THE PERPENDICULAR TO THE ENGRAIN BECAUSE OF EXPANSION AND CONTRACTION. IT'S JUST NOT WORTH IT. SO, OK. [00:40:02] DOUG, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I WANT TO BRING UP IS WE'RE ALL ANYBODY WHO'S LIVING IN THE EAST END LIVING IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY TO THROW AT THESE PROJECTS. AND THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN IN THEIR HOUSES IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT FOR DECADES. AND THEY DON'T HAVE YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME RETIREES THAT DON'T HAVE MUCH AND DON'T HAVE MUCH INCOME. WE CAN'T REALLY, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO DICTATE THIS. I THINK THEY'RE IN THAT SITUATION. YOU'D BE STUCK WITH TREATED LUMBER, TREATED PINE, BECAUSE ALL THE OTHER ONES ARE REALLY FOR A TYPICAL HOMEOWNER TO GO OUT AND BUY IPE OR AZEK WOULD NOT BE IN THEIR BUDGET. WOULD YOU SAY THAT THEN HOW FAR DOWN THE LINE IS TREATED PINE RELATED TO THESE OTHER PRODUCTS. HOW LONG DOWN THE LINE IS TREATED PINE WHAT? I'M WANTING TO KNOW WHAT THE HOW MUCH WORSE IS THE YELLOW KIND THE TREATED PINE BECAUSE SO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD TO GET THE BETTER PRODUCTS, SO THEY'RE REALLY STUCK WITH THE TREATED PINE. IS IT THAT MUCH LESS? I'M FEELING LIKE IT IS THE QUALITY IS SO MUCH LESS AT THIS POINT, BUT WE CAN'T EXPECT PEOPLE TO GO EVERYBODY TO HAVE THE FUNDS FOR SOME OF THESE SYNTHETICS OR IPE FOR INSTANCE. NO, NO. I MEAN, JUST I DIDN'T KNOW ADDRESSES. I DID AN IPE DECK ON THE SECOND FLOOR OF A HOME PROBABLY 20 YEARS AGO. AND IT WAS ABOUT 40 FEET WIDE. IT TOOK THREE MEN 3 DAYS TO INSTALL THAT DECK WITH DRILLING THE HOLES, RUNNING THE STAINLESS STEEL SCREWS. SO IN ADDITION TO THE COST OF THE PRODUCT, THE LABOR WAS EXCESSIVE. I WOULD LIKE JUST TO KNOW THAT IF SOMEONE THAT ANYBODY CAN USE TREATED PINE ON THEY'RE OLD ROAD HOME, ANYBODY, THEY CAN GO TO THE STORE, TAKE A CHANCE ON THE QUALITY AND USE THAT PRODUCT. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO KNOW THAT THE COMMISSION WOULD ALLOW IN THE FUTURE FOR PEOPLE TO EITHER USE ONE REALLY GOOD COMPOSITE MATERIAL OR BE ABLE TO SPEND THE FUNDS AND HAVE IPE OR THE ACCOYA OR KERUING. KERUING IS WHAT THEY LINE THE DECKS OF OF 18 WHEELERS WITH. IT IS EXTREMELY DURABLE. SO TO GIVE PEOPLE MORE OPTIONS AND JUST SAY YOU HAVE TO USE TREATED PINE OR RECLAIMED PINE. WHEN I THINK ABOUT THIS PRODUCT, I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK IT'S THE PERSON WHO'S LOOKING FOR A MORE COST EFFICIENT OPTION, I THINK IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE BUYING THE STANDING SEEM METAL ROOFS. THEY WANT TO INVEST IN A PRODUCT THAT IS GOING TO PERFORM FOR A WHILE LIKE WE DID. I GOT CAUGHT IN THAT SAME SITUATION WHERE WE REPLACED ALL THESE PORCHES WITH THE TREATED PINE AND NOT EVEN TWO YEARS LATER, THEY WERE ROTTING OUT AND CHAIR LEGS WERE FALLING THROUGH. AND THAT'S WHEN I SAID, OK, I'M NOT DOING THIS EVERY TWO OR THREE YEARS. AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S BUT I THINK THIS PRODUCT IS MORE THAT UPPER END. I MEAN, YOU THINK ABOUT TREATED PINE RECLAIMED LUMBER AND THEN YOU START GETTING INTO THE IPE AND AZEKS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. THEY'RE VERY EXPENSIVE. BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT ONCE IN 20 YEARS. SO I GUESS ONCE YOU FIGURE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO REPLACE THAT PORCH SIX TIMES, IF YOU DON'T USE THE REGULAR YOU, MAYBE IT'S ABOUT THE SAME. BUT I AGREE. I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE ANOTHER OPTION OUT THERE. I FEEL STRONGLY THAT WE VET THAT PRODUCT. REALLY KNOW IT WELL BEFORE. IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ENDORSE, JUST LIKE WE DID WITH THE PARTY, CITING THERE'S ONE THAT WE RECOMMEND AND THE OTHERS THAT WE DO NOT. BUT THERE IS THAT OPTION. AND I LIKE THAT IDEA. WELL, AGAIN, I'M NOT ENDORSING AZEK IF I CAN DO SOMETHING TO HELP, IF YOU WANT ME TO TRY TO GATHER UP SAMPLES TO DISTRIBUTE TO THE COMMISSIONERS, I'LL BE MORE THAN GLAD TO SEE IF I CANT PULL THAT OFF. JOANNE. I'M THINKING IF WE COULD GET ONE DEMONSTRATION HOUSE WITH THIS, SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO REDO THEIR PORCH AND WE COULD HAVE IT DONE IN THIS AZEK JUST TO SEE IT. I THINK THAT WOULD BE A NICE WAY TO SAY I DON'T MIND AT ALL LIMITING IT TO THIS ONE PRODUCT. AND I THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA. WELL, THAT WAS MY THOUGHT. BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT WAY IT WOULD BE A DEMONSTRATION. WE COULD SAY THIS IS WE'RE NOT PUTTING IT IN HERE YET. WE'RE JUST SAYING IT'S OK TO TRY THIS SO WE CAN SEE IT, I DON'T KNOW, LEGAL OR NOT. BUT I THINK THAT WOULD BE GREAT. AND THAT WAY I'M LOOKING AT IT ONLINE, TOO. LOOKS LIKE PERFECT TONGUE AND GROOVE WOOD TO ME. SO I THINK AS FAR AS LOOKS GO, WE WOULDN'T I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE. [00:45:01] IF I WALKED UP ON THE PORCH AND LOOKED AT IT REALLY? AND THAT'S WHAT WE WANT. WE WANT SOMETHING THAT'S DURABLE. LOOKS LIKE, YOU KNOW, IF WE CAN'T GET THE BEST WOOD FOR OUR PORCHES AND THIS IS THIS ALTERNATIVE, I THINK WE JUST LIST THIS ALTERNATIVE. WE PREFER WOOD. BUT THIS IS AN ALTERNATIVE. BUT I'M LIKE YOU. I THINK WE NEED TO SEE IT. SO WHETHER YOU GET SAMPLES FROM JOHN OR GET SOMEBODY TO ACTUALLY TRY IT. I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE WAY TO GO. WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS. I CONTACTED THE HOUSE THAT WAS ON THE SPRING HOME TOUR A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. THAT WAS AN ARCHITECT'S HOUSE. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THIS WAS, BECAUSE IT WAS TONGUE AND GROOVE WOOD, BUT IT WAS NOT WOOD AND IT WAS GORGEOUS. AND IF IT IS IN FACT THAT PRODUCT, I'M SURE HE WOULDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS. HE'D LOVE TO HAVE US BACK AND TAKE A LOOK AT IT. SO MAYBE WE THAT MAYBE THAT MAY BE THE SHORTEST ROUTE TO WHAT WE WANT, BECAUSE THAT'S IT. IT'S BEEN DOWN THERE FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS AND WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR AN, YOU KNOW, DISCOVERY PERIOD. WE CAN SAY, YOU KNOW, STARTING NEXT MONTH, WE APPROVE THAT PARTICULAR PRODUCT IN THESE COLORS. SARAH HAD A COMMENT. I HAVE A QUESTION ON THAT AZEK WOOD IT ONLY COMES IN COLORS. AND RIGHT NOW WE'RE GETTING WE'RE HAVING OUR HOUSE PAINTED AND OUR FLOOR IS GOING TO BE PAINTED THE SAME COLOR AS OUR SHUTTERS. SO CAN IT BE PAINTED OR DOES IT HAVE TO BE THE WAY IT'S MANUFACTURED? I AM CERTAIN THAT SOMEONE WOULD MAKE A PAINT THAT WOULD STICK TO IT, BUT THAT WOULD BE KIND OF GOING AGAINST THE REASON WHY YOU WOULD BUY IT. ONE OF THE REASONS THAT YOU BUY IT IS TO NOT HAVE THE MAINTENANCE. BUT THEN AGAIN, THIS IS A VERY PECULIAR SITUATION FOR THIS PRODUCT. IT'S NOT BEING LOOKED AT TO IT'S LOOKED AT TO FILL A VOID. I DON'T KNOW. I'M SURE IT COULD BE PAINTED. BUT THEN YOU'RE GOING TO GET SCRATCHES ON IT. I DON'T BELIEVE. I'M SURE THERE'S PAINTS THAT ARE GOING TO STICK TO IT. ARE THEY GOING TO STICK TO THAT TYPE OF PLASTIC AND NOT SCRATCH? I DOUBT IT. IN ALL HONESTY. OK. AND WHICH IS I WANT TO GO BACK, I DIDN'T TOUCH ON THIS EARLIER. THESE THE DIFFERENT IPE AND THE KERUING AND THOSE WOODS, THOSE CAN'T BE PAINTED. I MAY HAVE SAID THAT OR NOT. THEY THEY ALL DULL TO LIKE A GREY WEATHERED WOOD. OH, YOU CAN'T PAINT THEM. RIGHT. YOU'D HAVE TO PAINT YOUR SHUTTERS TO MATCH THEM. [LAUGHTER] YEAH, THERE YOU GO. OH, GOOD HEAVENS. SORRY, THIS IS CATHERINE, I HAVE A QUESTION RIGHT NOW. THE WEB DESIGN STANDARDS I READ IS THAT THE COMMISSION CAN CONSIDER AN ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS IF A WOOD PORCH OR DECK FLOOR NEEDS REPLACEMENT BECAUSE A SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATION. COULD YOU JUST GIVE US MAYBE A RULE OF THUMB ABOUT WHEN A PORCH SHOULD BE REPLACED RATHER THAN REPAIRED? IS THERE A THRESHOLD AT WHICH YOU WOULD PROPOSE THAT YOUR CLIENT REPLACE IT RATHER THAN GOING TO THE REPAIR OPTION? WOW. WELL, WHEN YOUR ANKLE GOES THROUGH, THAT WOULD BE NO. ONE. THAT IS THAT IS SUCH A PORCHES FROM WHAT I SEE TYPICALLY ROT OUT IN THE SAME AREAS UNDERNEATH THE COLUMNS. THAT'S THE FIRST SPOT THEY ROT OUT AND THEN THEY ROT OUT RIGHT NEXT TO THE HOUSE WITH IMPROPER FLASHING OR COUNTER FLASHING TO KEEP THE WATER OFF OF THE DECK WITHOUT AS FAR AS GENERAL ROT. I WOULD I THINK ONCE YOU GET TO THE POINT WHERE THERE'S SIGNIFICANT GIVE IN THE BOARD WHEN YOU WALK ON IT. WOULD BE THE TIME TO REALLY CONSIDER DOING THAT, AN INSECT INFESTATION IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BECAUSE THEN YOU JUST YOU'RE YOU KNOW, THEY'RE ROTTEN. THEY'RE BEING EATEN UP FROM THE INSIDE. THAT'S A TOUGH ONE CATHERINE I MEAN, WOULD I WANT TO SEE SOMEONE TAKE A PERFECTLY GOOD PORCH AND TEAR IT UP TO PUT DOWN AZEK BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT LOOKED BETTER. NO, I WOULD NOT WANT THAT AT ALL. AT ALL. SO I DON'T WANT TO BE DICTATED. BUT ON THAT NOTE, IF THIS IS A PRODUCT THAT WE APPROVE WITHIN THE LANDMARK COMMISSION, I DON'T FEEL LIKE WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN'T DO IF THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. IF THIS IS AN APPROVED PRODUCT, MAYBE THEY LIKE THE LOOKS OF IT, MAYBE THEY'RE TRENDY, MAYBE THEY DON'T WANT TO PAINT IT AGAIN. AND THERE'S REALLY NOTHING WRONG WITH THEIR PORCH. BUT THAT'S WHY I THINK WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL AND THOUGHTFUL ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING, BECAUSE IF WE APPROVE A PRODUCT, WE CAN'T THEN ALSO SAY, BUT YOU CAN ONLY DO IT IF THE [00:50:03] WHOLE PORCH IS ROT OUT THAT HOMEOWNER HAS TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE IF THIS IS AVAILABLE, THEN THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO DO. WITHOUT QUESTION, WE ALLOWED IT. SO WE NEED TO BE PREPARED TO SAY THAT IS WHAT THE RULE IS. I THINK THE STANDARDS HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT MAINTAINING YOUR ORIGINAL MATERIALS WHEREVER POSSIBLE, RIGHT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A DIFFERENT BALLGAME. UNLESS THERE'S SIGNIFICANT, BUT ALSO JUST LIKE DOUG WOULD SAY THERE'S HARDSHIP TO JUST MAINTAINING THE WOOD PORCHES. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF ELDERLY PEOPLE THAT DON'T WANT TO HIRE PAINTERS EVERY TWO YEARS TO COME OUT AND SCRAPE AND PAINT AND PUDDING CAULK AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF TO MAINTAIN IT. SO IS THAT A JUSTIFIABLE REASON? I THINK SO. WELL, I DON'T KNOW. SARAH. I DON'T THINK THAT THE COMMISSION HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMEBODY THAT THEY CAN USE AZEK BUT CAN'T USE TRACKS, SO I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE REALLY CAREFUL WITH HOW YOU WERE, LIKE DONNA SAID, THE DESCRIPTION THAT YOU'RE GOING TO USE. YOU KNOW, YOU SAY THAT, OK, FINE, YOU CAN GO IN AND REPLACE YOUR PATIO WITH A COMPOSITE. YOU CAN'T TELL ME THAT I HAVE TO USE THE ONE THAT'S LIKE NINE DOLLARS A SQUARE FOOT VERSUS THE ONE THAT I FOUND THAT'S FOUR DOLLARS A SQUARE FOOT. SO YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO WORD THAT EXACTLY. WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WORD THAT EXACTLY. SO THAT YOU'RE NOT I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE JUST SAYING, OK, WELL, I'M USING TREX USE THAT WE COULD USE COMPOSITE, BUT I THINK MOST OF THE THINGS WE DO ARE ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THAT MATTERS EITHER. DOUG, I THOUGHT JOHN DID A VERY GOOD JOB OF DESCRIBING WHY TREX IS NOT A PREFERRED PRODUCT JUST BECAUSE OF THOSE FACING OF THE FRAMING UNDERNEATH TO BE SO TIGHT, THAT WILL END UP COSTING THE HOMEOWNER A LOT MORE TO HAVE TO DO THE ADDITIONAL FRAMING. SO I THINK IF WE CAN GUIDE THE HOMEOWNERS WITH INFORMATION LIKE THAT WHEN THEY DO WANT AN ANSWER, WE'RE NOT JUST TELLING THEM ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. WE'RE JUST GIVING THEM A DESCRIPTION OF WHY THEY MIGHT THINK OTHERWISE. I THINK CATHERINE WITHIN THE DESIGN GUIDELINES AND LANDMARK. AS A GENERAL RULE, WE ONLY ALLOW ONE OF THE HARDIE PRODUCTS, NOT ALL OF THEM. WE DON'T ALLOW THE WOOD GRAIN ONES. WE JUST ALLOW THIS SPECIFIC ONE WITHIN THAT PRODUCT LINE. WHY WOULDN'T THIS BE, WHY WOULD THIS BE ANY DIFFERENT TO SAY WE ALLOW THIS PRODUCT, BECAUSE IT LOOKS, SMELLS AND FEELS LIKE THE REAL THING. SO ESTHETICALLY, WE'RE IN KEEPING WITH PRESERVING THE ARCHITECTURE. RIGHT, BECAUSE THIS IS ALL ABOUT PRESERVING THE ARCHITECTURE. AND I DON'T THINK TREX MAKES A PRODUCT THAT DUPLICATES THE ARCHITECTURAL DETAILS AT THIS POINT. THEY DON'T MAKE IT RIGHT I DO NOT BELIEVE TREX MAKES A TONGUE AND GROOVE PRODUCT AND I'M NOT AWARE OF IT. AND I'M NOT GOING TO I DON'T WANT TO JUST BASH TREX, TREX WAS USED ON THE ATLANTIC BOARDWALK AND SIX MONTHS LATER IT WAS REPLACED WITH IPE. TREX WAS USED AT ASTRO WORLD. AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO ASTRO WORLD. THEY TORE THE WHOLE THING DOWN. [LAUGHTER] IT COULD NOT HANDLE THE COMMERCIAL CONTACT. AND JUST TO ANSWER CONNIE'S QUESTION, WHAT WE DO WITH THE HARDIE IS WE USE THE TERMINOLOGY OR SIMILAR PRODUCTS, WE'LL SAY THAT YOUR PROJECT IS APPROVED TO USE THE ARTISAN LINE BY THE JAMES HARDIE COMPANY OR A SIMILAR PRODUCT. AND ANY JOHN, AND THEN I THINK WE PROBABLY NEED TO MAYBE HIT SOME OF THE OTHER ITEMS IN THE WORKSHOP. BUT CATHERINE, CATHERINE MADE A GOOD POINT AS TO WHEN IS A PORCH, I GUESS, IN THAT STATE? MOST TIMES FOLKS WILL COME TO THE COMMISSION WITH PICTURES. AND WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING AT A PORCH THAT THEY SAY IS IN REALLY BAD SHAPE, THEY'LL JUST LOOK AT PICTURES AND WHATNOT. BUT YOU MENTIONED WALKING ON THE PORCH AND I GUESS THE GIVE. ARE THERE ANY TESTS THAT A PERSON CAN PROVIDE TO THE COMMISSION FROM A FOREIGN COMPANY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT THAT CAN ACTUALLY CALCULATE, IT MAY LOOK GOOD, BUT THE GIVE IS IS BAD. IS THERE SOMETHING THAT CAN BE PROVIDED TO THE COMMISSION ALONG THOSE LINES THAT YOU 'RE AWARE OF? FROM MY OPINION? THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO. I'VE WALKED UP TO HOUSES. WE JUST FINISHED A HOUSE WHERE THE FASCIA BOARDS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE LOOKED [00:55:01] FANTASTIC UNTIL WE GOT UP THERE AND REALIZED THAT THE PAINT WAS HOLDING THE FRONT OF THE FASCIA BOARD INTACT AND YOU COULD TAKE YOUR FINGER AND POKE IT THROUGH THERE. ROT HAS ALL DIFFERENT TYPES OF CHARACTERISTICS. TYPICALLY WHAT I DO IS I WALK AROUND THE POCKETKNIFE AND I WILL STICK. THE POCKET KNIFE IN THE WOOD IF THE POCKET KNIFE, GOES IN THE WOOD MORE THAN A QUARTER OF AN INCH. IT'S PROBABLY NOT ANY GOOD ANYMORE. BUT THAT'S NOT I DON'T WANT TO ADVISE PEOPLE TO WALK AROUND WITH A POCKET KNIFE AND TEST THE.. RIGHT OR ANY OF THE COMMISSIONERS TO GO AROUND AND STICK A POCKET KNIFE IN SOMEBODY'S PROPERTY. THANK YOU, JOHN. YOU'RE WELCOME. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. I REALLY I HOPE THIS HELPED. AND AND IF THERE'S ANYTHING ELSE I CAN DO, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. THANK YOU SO MUCH. IT WAS VERY HELPFUL. YOU'RE WELCOME. THANKS, JOHN. MOVING ON TO OUR NEXT ITEM IS THE COMPLIANCE UPDATE. OK, I'VE GOT A COUPLE OF ITEMS TO DISCUSS ON THE COMPLIANCE UPDATE. LET ME JUST PULL UP THE POWERPOINT. LOOK AT SOME PICTURES. SO I AM ONCE AGAIN, SORRY, I'M HAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE GETTING THIS TO DISPLAY. OK, SINCE OUR LAST COMPLIANCE REPORT, WE'VE HAD A COUPLE OF UPDATES, THIS IS 2324 AVENUE O ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF THE SCREEN, YOU CAN SEE THEY HAD REPLACED THEIR WINDOWS WITH THESE DECORATIVE VINYL WINDOWS. AND THIS IS A PICTURE, A RECENT PICTURE. SO THEY'VE DONE WORK TO TAKE THESE WINDOWS OUT AND REPLACE THEM WITH MORE APPROPRIATE WINDOWS. WE ALSO HAVE AN UPDATE ON 11 28 POST OFFICE. THIS IS A PICTURE FROM 2015 THAT SHOWS THE ORIGINAL CONDITION THEN THE OWNERS ADDED SOME DECORATIVE TRIM THAT WAS NOT APPROVED. THEY HAVE SINCE STARTED YEAH, THAT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. THEY STILL NEED TO LET ME GO BACK A COUPLE OF THERE THESE COLUMN CAPS HERE REMOVED. RIGHT. AND A SMALLER SORT OF TRIM PIECE HERE. SO IT LOOKS LIKE THOSE STILL NEED TO BE REPLACED OR. YEAH, REPLACED. BUT THAT'S GOOD NEWS. ISN'T THIS THIS HOUSE? ISN'T THIS THE HOUSE? IT JUST CAME BEFORE LANDMARK A WHILE AGO. WE APPROVED, IN ADDITION, OVER THE GARAGE. IS THAT THIS HOUSE? NO, THEY CAME THEY'VE COME A COUPLE OF TIMES FIRST ABOUT A YEAR OR SO AGO FOR THE RETENTION OF THE DECORATIVE TRIM THAT WAS DENIED. THEY WERE GIVEN SOME TIME TO HUNDRED BLOCK OF THE NEXT BLOCK. YEAH, COULD BE. AND THEY CAME BACK. YEAH. YEAH, THAT'S YEAH. THAT'S IN THE VICINITY. CATHERINE THE FIRST HOUSE THAT YOU SHOWED. THERE'S DECORATIVE TRIM ON THERE. THAT DOESN'T SEEM APPROPRIATE. YEAH THERE IS. BUT THAT WE DON'T KNOW AT WHAT POINT THAT THAT WAS PUT ON. IT'S BEEN ON THERE FOR A LONG TIME. SO ALTHOUGH THAT IS NOT ORIGINAL AND WE WOULD NOT CONSIDER THAT APPROPRIATE, WE DON'T KNOW THE DATA WHICH IT WAS INSTALLED. SO WE WERE JUST DEALING. YES. THANK YOU. YEAH. THE POST DON'T LOOK ORIGINAL EITHER. THEN WE HAD THE SWEENEY ROYSTON HOUSE 2402 AVENUE L THEY WERE TODAY JUST WORKING ON THE REMOVAL OF THE PAINT OF THE TURRET THESE OWNERS. KEEP ME INFORMED OF WHAT THEIR PROGRESS IS AND SO THEY'RE WORKING. I THINK THEY STARTED ON THE BACK OF THE TURRET AND THEY'RE WORKING THEIR WAY AROUND TO THE FRONT SO THAT YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE WAS A WORKER THERE TODAY WHO WAS REMOVING THE PAINT FROM THIS SECTION HERE. 1809 AVENUE M, THEY REPLACED THE OR INSTALLED THE WINDOW CORRECTION ON THE SIDES OF THE [01:00:06] HOUSE. NICE. HERE IS THE TWO NEW VIOLATIONS THAT JUST CAME IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO, THIS IS THE REAR STRUCTURE AT 20 OR 1202 BALL, THEY STARTED TO DO SOME FOUNDATION REPAIR. SO YOU CAN SEE THAT THIS SIDING HAS BEEN REMOVED WITH NO PERMITS. SO THEY'VE BEEN RED TAGGED YOU CAN SEE THE RED TAG HERE ON THE DOOR. AND THEY ARE GOING TO BE SUBMITTING A PERMIT THIS WEEK. THAT STRUCTURE, CATHERINE, IS ACROSS THE ALLEY FROM MY PARENTS, SO I'M WATCHING IT VERY CLOSELY BECAUSE THERE'S THREE ALONG THE SIDE THAT I, I DON'T SAY ANYTHING TO THEM. I JUST THINK I KNOW THE PREVIOUS OWNERS, THE PEOPLE THAT USED TO OWN THAT BUILDING. AND IT WAS RUMORED THAT THAT WAS JACK JOHNSON'S MOTHER'S HOME. YEAH, I'VE HEARD THAT RUMOR, TOO. THIS LIKE AN 1860S STRUCTURE AND TAKES OVER SIX WINDOWS. I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THEY'VE GOT THESE SIX OVER SIX WINDOWS. SO THAT'S DEFINITELY A CLUE THAT IT WAS OLD. IT LOOKS EARLY. AND THERE'S THE WINDOWS ALONG THE ALLEY ARE REALLY ODD BECAUSE THERE'S TWO ON EITHER SIDE. THERE ARE SIX OVER SIX IN SIZE AND THEN THERE'S ONE IN THE MIDDLE THAT'S JUST SLIGHTLY SMALLER AND IT'S JUST SUCH A WEIRD CONFIGURATION. BUT AGAIN, IT'S NOT MY BUSINESS TO GO OVER THERE AND POLICE ANYBODY. SO I'M JUST WATCHING AND HOPING THAT THEY KNOW. SO THESE OWNERS HAVE THEY'LL BE DOING THE PERMIT FOR THIS WORK. AND THEN THEY'VE ALSO SUBMITTED FOR SOME WORK TO THE MAIN HOUSE THAT'LL BE REVIEWED AT THE LANDMARK COMMISSION MEETING IN MAY, FIRST MEETING IN MAY. BUT THEY'VE JUST SUBMITTED THAT. THIS IS CONSIDERED A REAR STRUCTURE? CORRECT. YES. OK, THANK YOU. BUT IT'S ON A IT'S VISIBLE ON A NUMBERED STREET. RIGHT. THIS IS 12TH STREET RIGHT HERE. RIGHT. AND IT'S A REAR STRUCTURE TO THE MAIN STRUCTURE OF THE. YOU CAN JUST BARELY SEE THE BACK OF THE STAIRCASE HERE. AND THAT'S ADDRESS IS BALL. SO WE WOULD REFER TO IT AS TWELFTH OF THE BALL REAR. IT'S RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER BEEN WATCHING IT ALSO. YEAH. YOU KNOW, THE ONLY THING THAT CONCERNS ME ABOUT THAT, CATHERINE, IS THAT THAT PROPERTY WAS NOT ORIGINALLY A REAR STRUCTURE. IT WAS ORIGINALLY A FACE HOME THAT WAS MOVED THERE. AND IT'S REALLY NO DIFFERENT THAN MY RESIDENCE TWO HOUSES OVER THAT FACES 12TH STREET THAT HAS A SIDEWALK THAT FACES 12TH STREET. SO CAN WE HONESTLY SAY, YES, IT'S IN THE BACK OF THE STRUCTURE, BUT THE WAY THEY'VE TURNED IT AND FACED IT WITH LOW FENCING, IT REALLY DOES APPEAR LIKE A RESIDENCE, NOT A SECONDARY STRUCTURE, [INAUDIBLE] CERTAINLY NOT A TYPICAL GARAGE APARTMENT KIND OF STRUCTURE. SO WE MAY REFER TO IT AS REAR, BUT IT IS DEFINITELY HAVE A SINGLE FAMILY. IT'S A SINGLE FAMILY TYPE DWELLING. YEAH, OK, AND THEN HERE'S ANOTHER VIOLATION WHERE THIS WAS THE HOUSE BUILT AS A DUPLEX. IT'S GOT TWO DOORS AND THEY THEY'VE SORT OF SIDED IN ONE OF THE DOORS AND RETAINED ONE. SO THEY'VE BEEN NOTIFIED OF THIS VIOLATION FROM THE COMPLIANCE DIVISION. DIDN'T THAT COME TO US YEARS AGO? IT DID. IT CAME TO US IN '16 TO REPLACE THIS, TO DO THIS EXACT WORK. AND SO I THOUGHT OH THIS MUST BE NEW OWNERS. BUT IT'S NOT, IT'S THE SAME OWNERS. SO WE'RE TALKING TO THEM ABOUT WHAT THEY NEED TO DO TO MOVE FORWARD. WELL, THAT'S THE COMPLIANCE UPDATE. OK. ALWAYS SOMETHING NEW. RIGHT NOW, WE'RE MOVING ON TO NEW CONSTRUCTION IN HISTORIC DISTRICTS. THIS IS A CONVERSATION THAT WE STARTED TO HAVE PROBABLY A MONTH OR SO AGO AT A WORKSHOP ABOUT THE APPROPRIATENESS OF NEW CONSTRUCTION IN HISTORIC DISTRICTS, OUR PHILOSOPHY HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT THEY SHOULD BE SIMPLIFIED AND IN KEEPING IN THEIR TIME. BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE COMMISSION HAD WANTED TO TALK ABOUT. AND I THINK THAT MAYBE CONNIE WAS GOING TO DO SOME RESEARCH INTO LOOKING AT WHAT OTHER COMMUNITIES ARE DOING. THAT'S JUST MY MEMORY. YEAH, SO I THINK THERE'S THIS CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE HAVING ABOUT HOW MUCH IS ACCEPTABLE. ONE OF THE STUDIES, AND THAT WAS THE BOOK THAT I TALKED ABOUT LAST TIME, THAT WAS VERY [01:05:01] SIMILAR TO THAT STUDY THAT WAS PAID FOR BY THE TEXAS HISTORICAL COMMISSION THAT WAS DONE BY UT AND RUTGERS UNIVERSITY ABOUT TEXAS HISTORIC RESEARCH. SO IT'S DONE BY THIRD. SO THIS WAS DONE BY NEW YORK. IT WAS DONE BY A THIRD PARTY PERSON WHO DID THE RESEARCH ON IT. AND THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT ESSENTIALLY WITHOUT GETTING INTO A WHOLE LOT OF GRANULAR LEVEL ON THIS. THE OVERALL THING IS THAT SOMETIMES WHEN WE GO TOO STRICTLY TO ONE SIDE WHAT WE END UP DOING IS PRODUCING SOMETHING THAT IS KIND OF JARRING OR OFFSETTING TO THE ESTHETICS OF AN HISTORIC DISTRICT. THEIR ONE OF THEIR ONE OF THEIR EXAMPLES WAS A VERY, VERY OLD HISTORIC LIBRARY IN NEW YORK AND WHICH THEY REALLY APPLY THE LETTER OF THE LAW SO STRICTLY THAT THIS STAIRCASE THAT WAS PUT IN THERE WAS SO CONTEMPORARY LOOKING IN NATURE COMPARED TO THE HISTORIC-NESS OF THE ORIGINAL THAT IT WAS JARRING. AND THEY REALIZED AT THAT POINT THAT THEY HAD MADE A MISTAKE, THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, IN SOME CASES YOU CAN, IN SOME CURRENCY DENOTE A PROPERTY BECAUSE YOU'RE PUTTING THINGS WITHIN THE DISTRICT OR ON THE PROPERTY THAT JUST SO DISCONNECT FROM THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE. SO I THINK THERE IS A CONVERSATION THERE ABOUT, WELL, WHY WHO ARE WE I MEAN, THERE'S BEEN SOME MENTION ABOUT WHAT WHEN PEOPLE DRIVE BY? AND THEY'RE GOING TO THINK THAT THAT'S HISTORIC. BUT I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK THAT THAT IS EXACTLY OUR PURPOSE, IS TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE WHO DRIVE THROUGH AS TOURIST AREN'T CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE SEEING AS IT IS TO PRESERVE THE HISTORIC STRUCTURE ITSELF. AND I THINK THAT THERE'S ROOM TO ALLOW SOMETHING DIFFERENT. SO I'VE TALKED TO A COUPLE OF PEOPLE ABOUT THIS, AND ONE OF THE IDEAS WAS TO HAVE A GUIDELINE THAT ALLOWED A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF COMPLEMENTARY COMPONENTS TO THAT SECONDARY STRUCTURE AS LONG AS THEY WEREN'T GREATER IN NUMBER, LARGER IN SIZE. AND THAT ON THESE STRUCTURES, WE WE DENOTE ON THE STRUCTURE, JUST LIKE YOU WOULD, A CORNERSTONE OR PLAQUE THAT GIVES THE YEAR OF THE STRUCTURE. SO SOMEBODY MAY GO BY AND LOOK AT IT AND SAY, OH, MY GOD, THAT THIS IS BEAUTIFUL. THAT'S FABULOUS. OH, WELL, THAT WAS BUILT IN 2021 WELL ISN'T THAT COOL, THEY MADE IT LOOK VERY MUCH LIKE IT. THEREFORE, WE ARE COMPLEMENTING THE HISTORIC DISTRICTS. WE'VE CREATED MORE OF A CONTINUITY ESTHETICALLY IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT, WHICH I THINK LENDS ITSELF TO THE OVERALL VALUE AND APPEARANCE OF THESE STRUCTURES. IT DOESN'T FOOL ANYBODY BECAUSE WE'VE DATED WHAT THE BUILDING IS AND WE'VE ALLOWED NOT A COMPLETE DUPLICATION, BUT THAT WE ALLOW CERTAIN ELEMENTS SO THAT WE DON'T BUILD GARAGE APARTMENTS OR GARAGES THAT LOOK LIKE THEY CAME OUT OF EASTERN BLOC GERMANY NEXT TO AN HISTORIC HOME. THAT'S WHAT I MEAN ABOUT BEING JARRING. AND WE HAD SUCH A CASE COME TO US A COUPLE, MAYBE A MONTH OR SO AGO. AND IT WAS THAT SIMILAR SITUATION WHERE THEY WERE REALLY WORKING WITH A SHARP ARCHITECT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW COULD THEY BUILD A GARAGE APARTMENT OVER THIS CINDER BLOCK BOX AND MAKE IT COMPLEMENT THE HOUSE. AND SO THAT'S ALL I'M TALKING ABOUT. I APPRECIATE SOME OF MY OTHER COMMISSIONER'S VIEWS THAT WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE COMING IN AND DUPLICATING THE HISTORIC STRUCTURE. SO SO MY THOUGHT ON THAT IS, YOU KNOW, HISTORY DIDN'T DIE IN GALVESTON. ARCHITECTURE DIDN'T DIE IN GALVESTON. IT GOES ON. AND MOST OF THE STRUCTURES THAT WE HAVE RIGHT HERE ARE BORROWING FROM ANOTHER TIME, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S GOTHIC OR TUDOR OR EMPIRE, THEY COME FROM ANOTHER DECADE ALTOGETHER. SO THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING RIGHT NOW. WE DON'T ALLOW IT AND WE'VE BEEN TAKING IT BY CASE BY CASE BASIS. SO I'M JUST ASKING, YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU'D LIKE ME TO GET YOU A COPY OF THE STUDY THAT WAS DONE BY THE UNIVERSITY THAT SHOWED THE EFFECTS OF ONE BEING VERY STRICT IN NOT ALLOWING ANYTHING THAT LOOKS LIKE AN HISTORIC STRUCTURE AND WHAT THE DOWNSIDE OF THAT IS VERSUS ALLOWING SOMEWHAT OF THINGS THAT COMPLIMENT THE ORIGINAL STRUCTURE THAT BLEND WITH THE ESTHETICS OF THE HISTORIC STRUCTURES, BUT WE MAKE WAYS TO LET IT THAT KNOWN THAT THAT'S NOT AN HISTORIC STRUCTURE. ALRIGHT DOUG. [01:10:02] DOUG. YEAH, THIS ONE'S REALLY CLOSE TO MY HEART, THE STRUCTURE THAT CAME UP IN FRONT OF US SEVERAL MONTHS AGO. I LIVE RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER FROM IT AND I HAD WATCHED THEM CONTINUE TO REPRODUCE EVERY SINGLE DETAIL ON THE FRONT HOUSE THAT THEY POSSIBLY CAN OR THEY'RE EVEN CONSIDER MOVING OR PUTTING TRIM ON THE HOUSE NOW THAT THEY'RE NEVER THAT WAS ON THE ORIGINAL HOUSE. AND NOW THEY'RE DUPLICATING THE TRIM. THEY'RE PUTTING RAILINGS ON THIS ON THIS BACK STRUCTURE THAT DUPLICATE THE FRONT RAILINGS. AND I THINK IT'S AN ABOMINATION. NOBODY'S GOING TO DRIVE BY AND LOOK FOR THE DATA BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE AN IDENTICAL TO THE MAIN HOUSE. AND THIS TO ME IS SO FAR AGAINST WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS NOT ALLOW BUILDERS TO REPRODUCE HISTORIC STRUCTURES. AND THAT'S WHAT THIS STRUCTURE LOOKS LIKE. AND TO ME, IT GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING I GOT ON THIS COMMISSION FOR. AND IF WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THAT AND MOVE AND WE'RE GOING TO TEND TO ALLOW THIS KIND OF CONSTRUCTION AND FOOL EVERYBODY BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET OUT OF THEIR CARS AND GO UP AND LOOK FOR A DATA, THEY'RE JUST NOT GOING TO DO THAT. BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO ALLOW THIS KIND OF STUFF TO HAPPEN, I DON'T WANT TO BE ON THE COMMISSION ANYMORE BECAUSE THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING I GOT ON HERE FOR. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THESE THINGS REPRODUCED AND I DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM COPIED. AND EVEN THOUGH IT'S A BACK STRUCTURE, IT'S BLATANTLY VISIBLE FROM THE STREET BECAUSE IT'S LIKE THE HOUSE WE LOOKED AT JUST A FEW MOMENTS AGO. IT'S 20 BLOCKS INSIDE THE FENCE. SO IF WE'RE GOING TO ALLOW THIS SORT OF DESTRUCTION OF WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE OUR GOAL, THEN I'M I DON'T THINK I CAN CONTINUE ON. IF THIS IS THE COURSE WE'RE GOING TO TAKE. SPECIFIC, THAT NEW BUILDINGS SHOULD NOT LOOK OLD. [INAUDIBLE] IS FAIRLY IS DISCOURAGED. AND I THINK THAT IS THE MAIN POINT HERE, CORRECT, OR NEW CONSTRUCTION SHOULD BE OF THE TIME THAT IS BEING CONSTRUCTED, BASICALLY, BUT RELEVANT TO ITS NEIGHBORING STRUCTURES AND FORM MASS MATERIAL, THAT SORT OF THING, YOU CAN BORROW CERTAIN ELEMENTS, BUT YOU HAVE TO CHANGE AND SIMPLIFY THEM TO MAKE THEM CURRENT. I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE GUIDELINES FOR WANTING US TO DO. CORRECT. AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS PROPERTY OWNER DID. HE REPRODUCED ALL THE DETAILS IN FINE DETAIL AND HE'S CONTINUING TO DO SO AS WE SPEAK. AND IF ANYBODY WANTS TO DRIVE UP 10TH STREET AND LOOK OVER ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE BLOCK, YOU'LL SEE HERE ON THE WEST SIDE EXCUSE ME, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE DETAIL OF THE MAIN HOUSE THAT ISN'T BEING REPRODUCED ON THIS NEW CONSTRUCTION. AND I JUST I DON'T THINK WE CAN CONTINUE THIS. SOMEHOW IT GOT THROUGH, SOMEHOW IT SLIPPED THROUGH. AND THAT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO USE THAT AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT. SO THIS IS A REALLY SLIPPERY SLOPE WE'VE GOTTEN ONTO. ARE WE GOING TO HOLD TO THESE ORIGINAL GUIDELINES THAT WE HAVE? OR ARE WE JUST GOING TO BLOW THEM OFF AND DO WHATEVER WE WANT TO DO BECAUSE IT LOOKS PRETTY? I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT. HE'S REFERRING TO, WHAT, A YEAR AGO MAY. YEAH. HE APPROVED EVERYTHING THAT'S BEING DONE. SORRY TO SAY SO, DOUG BUT YOU DID APPROVE IT. I NEVER APPROVED I HAVE SO I CAN TELL. DO THIS. HAS SEEN MANY, MANY CONVERSATIONS. THE AGENDA ITEM IS STRICTLY TO DISCUSS NEW CONSTRUCTION IN HISTORIC DISTRICTS. THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE COMMISSIONERS TO COME UP WITH THOUGHTFUL IDEAS ON HOW TO GO FORWARD ON WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE IN NEW CONSTRUCTION. AND I HAVE TO ADMONISH US GOING BACK TO REVISIT, YOU KNOW, A PROPERTY THAT, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY CAN JUST CHECK THE TAPE OR WHATEVER, BUT LET'S TRY AND MOVE FORWARD. WITH WHAT ARE SOME GOOD IDEAS FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION IN THESE HISTORIC DISTRICTS? WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD TO PROGRESS. NOW, I GUESS I TAKE A DIFFERENT VIEW BECAUSE WHEN I SIGNED UP TO BE A LANDMARK [01:15:02] COMMISSIONER, I FELT IT WAS TO PROTECT AND PRESERVE THE HISTORIC STRUCTURES. AND THAT WAS ACTUALLY KIND OF FURTHER DEFINED BY ME STANDING IN FRONT OF THE CURB, LOOKING AT THE HOUSE AND SAYING, OK, THIS IS REALLY WHAT WE'RE CHARGED WITH, IS PRESERVING THE ARCHITECTURE ON THE FRONT OF AN HISTORIC BUILDING. AND THE DISTRICT. DOUG THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I LOVE YOUR ZEST FOR HISTORIC PRESERVATION. BUT I ALSO SEE THE HOME OWNERS SIDE OF IT WHERE WE I FEEL, I THINK AND SOMETIMES WE ARE, YOU KNOW, RESTRAINING PEOPLE FROM INVESTING IN THEIR PROPERTIES GIVING THEM GUIDELINES. AND WE DON'T WANT TO REPRODUCE HISTORIC STRUCTURES. WE'RE NOT DOING THAT. WE'RE NOT INTENDING TO DO THAT. GO AHEAD, DISTRICT, CONGRATULATIONS, THAT LOOKS GOOD. [INAUDIBLE] DO YOU HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING. WELL, I THINK THERE'S A HAPPY MEDIUM THAT WE HAVE IN THE GUIDELINES, I THINK THAT WE SHOULD NOT. I AGREE WITH DOUG. WE SHOULDN'T BUILD A NEW CONSTRUCTION THAT IS IDENTICAL TO ONE RIGHT NEXT TO IT. I THINK THAT'S BAD. AND WE WHEN WE WERE VOTING ON THIS, AGAIN, THE UPDATES ON IT, I THINK WE THOUGHT IT WASN'T GOING TO BE EXACT. WE APPROVED SOME THINGS THAT WERE EXACT THAT PROBABLY WE SHOULDN'T HAVE. AND THEREFORE WE OPENED THAT DOOR FOR THE CONSTRUCTION TO BE CLOSER THAN WE WANTED ON THAT PARTICULAR PROPERTY, ON THE OTHER SIDE I DO WANT SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE IT BELONGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. SO SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE A BEACH HOUSE NEXT TO AN HISTORICAL DISTRICT IS NOT GOOD EITHER. THAT'S A LITTLE TOO MUCH MATTER OF THE COMMISSION TAKING A STRONG STAND WHEN SOMETHING COMES UP TO SAY, NO, THIS IS JUST TOO SEVERE FOR THIS PARTICULAR SPOT. THIS IS JUST TOO TALL FOR THIS PARTICULAR SPOT. THIS IS JUST TOO EXACT. AND UNLESS WE DO THAT AS A COMMISSION, THE STAFF HAS NOTHING TO GO ON. SO I THINK WE HAVE AIRED BOTH DIRECTIONS AND WE JUST NEED TO STICK WHAT IS IN WRITING THAT WE ALREADY HAVE. I THINK IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S A GOOD GUIDELINE TO ME. THAT'S JUST MY INPUT. NOTHING ELSE. I AGREE. I WILL I WILL SAY THAT THE CITY OF SALT LAKE CITY IS PRESERVATION GUIDELINES. THEY HAVE BEEN TOGETHER BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO DID OURS. BUT IN THEIR CHAPTER OF NEW CONSTRUCTION OF HISTORIC DISTRICTS, IT'S 19 PAGES LONG. IT'S VERY DETAILED AND IT'S PRETTY MUCH EXACTLY WHAT OUR GUIDELINES ARE SAYING. BUT THEY'RE VERY DESCRIPTIVE ABOUT THE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS THAT ARE INVOLVED IN NEW DESIGN AND MASSING IN FORM MATERIAL. YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE THING ELEMENTS THAT THEY FEEL OR I MEAN, IT GOES IT TALKS ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS AND THIS 19 PAGES LONG. AND IT'S A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL DOCUMENT AND SOMETHING THAT MAYBE Y'ALL SHOULD ALL CHECK OUT. I SAID I WOULDN'T SAY MORE, I THINK THAT'S A GREAT IDEA. MAYBE OURS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE ENOUGH. WE'RE PUTTING TOO MUCH INTO THE RESPONSIBILITY, YOU KNOW, STAFF TO DO WHAT WE THINK IS ON THERE. SO MAYBE IF THERE WERE MORE DESCRIPTORS, IT'S JUST LIKE WE HAVE A DESCRIPTOR. WHAT KIND OF PARTY PLANK WE CAN HAVE A DESCRIPTION OF HOW MUCH YOU KNOW, HOW CLOSE THEY CAN GET TO MAKING IT LOOK LIKE THE STRUCTURE WITHOUT BEING THE STRUCTURE AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. SO IF WE CAN LOOK AT THOSE, MAYBE THAT CAN BE SENT TO US AND WE CAN LOOK THROUGH THEM AND SEE IF THERE'S ANYTHING WE COULD BE FOR OURSELVES A LITTLE BIT THAT WOULD INCLUDE A LOT OF THEY INCLUDE A LOT OF PHOTOGRAPHS AND ALL. AND IT'S VERY, VERY WELL DONE. SO, YOU KNOW, WALLS, ROOFS, WINDOWS, DOORS, THE WHOLE THE WHOLE SHEBANG. BUT CAN I ASK THIS IN THE BOOK THAT I HAVE, THAT IS FROM THE STUDY THAT WAS DONE IN NEW [01:20:03] YORK, HISTORIC DISTRICT IS SEVENTY SIX PAGES LONG AND IT DOES HAVE SOME PICTURES. FRED, WOULD YOU ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF JUST LOOKING AT THIS DOCUMENT AND SEEING WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY IS THE WHOLE THING IS ABOUT NEW CONSTRUCTION IN AN HISTORIC DISTRICT. SO IT DOESN'T GO I MEAN, IT DOES KIND OF LIKE WE'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW. YEAH, WE DON'T WANT TO SEE A BEACH HOUSE. WE DON'T WANT TO SEE A STRONG CONTEMPORARY STAIRWAY IN THE MIDDLE OF A BEAUTIFUL HISTORIC LIBRARY. BUT THIS IS WHAT WE WILL ALLOW. AND WOULD YOU WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT? OH, YEAH, SURE. LOOK AT THAT BOOK. BUT OUR MAIN FOCUS IN NOT ADDING A NEW STAIRCASE TO AN OLD BUILDING, BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NEW CONSTRUCTION, A NEW STRUCTURE. AND BECAUSE I THINK AN EXISTING STRUCTURE KIND OF ALMOST KIND OF DICTATES WHAT'S APPROPRIATE FOR THAT. BUT WE'RE TALKING OLD, TOTALLY A NEW BUILDING. THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME. WELL, THIS ONE COVERS BOTH THE COVERS, BOTH, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY ITS NEW CONSTRUCTION NEXT TO AN HISTORIC HOME NOT NECESSARILY BUILDING NEW [INAUDIBLE], BUT IT'S DOING THE EDITIONS AND SO FORTH ON TO HISTORIC HOMES. MAYBE WE SHOULD GET THOSE DOCUMENTS DISTRIBUTED TO EVERYBODY. INAUDIBLE], YEAH, IF CONNIE AND FRED COULD SEND THOSE TO ME, THEN I'LL SEND THEM OUT TO THE GROUP. OK. THE DOCUMENT THAT I HAVE IS AGAIN, IT'S SEVENTY SIX PAGES, SO I'LL SEND IT TO YOU. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'LL BE EASIER CATHERINE, IF I PUT IT INTO A THUMB DRIVE AND MAILED IT TO YOU BECAUSE YOU'D BE DOWNLOADING A BUT I GUESS I DID IT ON MINE AND THEN I JUST TOOK IT OVER TO LOCAL PRINT SHOP AND HAD IT PRINTED. BUT AGAIN, THIS WAS A VERY EXPENSIVE STUDY DONE BY AN INDEPENDENT UNIVERSITY ON THIS SUBJECT SPECIFICALLY. AND I THINK THAT THEY HAVE A LOT OF WISE ADVICE FOR US IN THERE. AND, YOU KNOW, I FEEL FOR THE WAY SOME PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE APPROVED. AND JUST TO MAKE SURE I WASN'T LOST ON THAT, I ACTUALLY WENT BACK AND LISTENED TO IT AND THEN CHECKED AGAIN WHAT WAS DONE. AND THEY ARE DOING A HUNDRED PERCENT OF WHAT WE APPROVED. SO WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, IT IS WHAT IT IS AND YOU JUST GOT TO MOVE ON. SO THE NEXT OUR DESIGN GUIDELINES AND IT'S SO VAGUE AND IT'S SO MINIMAL THAT WE ARE PUTTING A LOT OF PRESSURE ON ARCHITECTS AND HOMEOWNERS TO KEEP COMING BACK UNTIL THEY GIVE US SOMETHING WE'RE HAPPY. IF I MAY SAY THIS, CHAIRPERSON, IT SOUNDS AS IF WE MAY BE WRAPPING UP A LITTLE BIT, BUT I NEED TO SAY THIS TO THE GROUP. THIS IS A COMMISSION. IT'S A BODY OF PEOPLE. IT'S NOT ONE PERSON OR EVEN TWO PEOPLE. WHEN DECISIONS ARE MADE, WHEN THOSE VOTES ARE CAST AND A DETERMINATION IS MADE, WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH THAT VOTE OR NOT, WHATEVER THE AFFIRMATIVE VOTE IS AT THE END OF THE DAY IS THE AFFIRMATIVE VOTE. AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHICHEVER SIDE WINS. AND SO I WOULD JUST LIKE AND MAYBE WE CAN SCHEDULE THIS FOR ANOTHER BRIEF WORKSHOP IN TERMS OF HOW TO BE RESPONSIVE TO YOUR ROLES AS COMMISSIONERS ON THIS BODY, KNOWING THAT IT'S NOT ALWAYS GOING TO GO IN YOUR FAVOR. MOST OFTEN TIMES IT DOES THIS BODY IS TYPICALLY CONSISTENT AND ARE VERY THOUGHTFUL IN ALL THE DECISIONS THAT THEY MAKE. BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO LISTEN TO EACH SIDE AND TO, AGAIN, JUST BE THOUGHTFUL IN WHAT YOUR ROLE IS AS A COMMISSIONER AND TO THE CITY. I DO APPRECIATE, CHAIRPERSON, YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF GOING OUT AND FINDING YOU JUST THE CITY. SALT LAKE CITY. SALT LAKE CITY. THANK YOU. AND OF COURSE, CONNIE GETS 76 PAGE DOCUMENT. THIS IS ALSO AN ENDEAVOR. SO CATHERINE, I'M SURE, WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT AVAILABLE TO ALL THE COMMISSIONERS. AND I ALMOST LOOK FORWARD TO READING IT, BUT I WILL BECAUSE IT SOUNDS EXTREMELY INTERESTING. AGAIN, THE TOPIC IS NEW CONSTRUCTION IN HISTORIC DISTRICTS. SO, CHAIRPERSON, TAKEAWAY. [01:25:01] OK CAN I JUST ADD ONE MORE THING TO THAT JUST A CORRECTION. SO THIS THIS DOCUMENT HERE THAT I'M GOING TO SEND TO CATHERINE, IT'S ACTUALLY TITLED A SENSE OF SPACE DESIGN GUIDELINES FOR NEW CONSTRUCTION IN HISTORIC DISTRICTS. IT'S A PUBLICATION OF THE PRESERVATION ALLIANCE OF GREATER PHILADELPHIA. SO I WAS WRONG. IT'S NOT NEW YORK. AND IT WAS SUPPORTED ON A GRANT FROM THE WILLIAM PENN FOUNDATION TO DO THIS KIND OF DOCUMENT. SO THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GETTING. ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. VERY GOOD MINE JUST SHOWS SALT LAKE CITY. ANYWAY, WE'RE ON A QUEST FOR ANSWERS. AND I THINK THE MORE ANSWERS AND INFORMATION AND OPTIONS, I MEAN, AFTER ALL, I WAS NOT AT ALL COMFORTABLE WITH USING A SYNTHETIC PRODUCT ON THE FRONT OF A STORE COME. AND WE HAD THIS GREAT WORKSHOP TODAY AND IT REALLY OPENED MY EYES TO THAT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT THERE'S A PRODUCT OUT THERE. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE CALL DUE DILIGENCE. RIGHT BEFORE WE ENDORSE SOMETHING, WE GO FORWARD WITH SOMETHING. WE SAY WE'RE COMFORTABLE WITH IT BECAUSE AGAIN, JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE WE DO WHEN WE PUT SOMETHING OUT THERE, WHAT WE'VE TOLD THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS THAT THIS IS ALLOWABLE, RIGHT. THIS IS ALLOWABLE. AND SO WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH IT. SO THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE OBJECTION WAS, IS THAT WE'VE ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN AND HAPPEN AGAIN. AND I THINK WE NEED TO CLARIFY WHAT OUR REAL DIRECTION IS. AND I THINK WE WENT OFF THE TARGET A LITTLE BIT. NOW, I THINK WE NEED TO GET BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED AND TRY NOT TO LET THIS SORT OF REPRODUCTION TYPE OF THING HAPPEN. SO I'M JUST THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY. YEAH, I THINK I THINK OUR GUIDELINES ARE GOOD GUIDELINES. I THINK THIS MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT MORE DESCRIPTION AND EXPANSION TO, YOU KNOW, SO EVERYBODY HAS A VISION TO SEE WHAT IT'S ABOUT. SO. ALL RIGHT. ANYBODY FURTHER ON THIS? SO, ALL RIGHT, THEN, I GUESS I'D REALLY LIKE TO SEE EVERYBODY GET A COPY OF THESE DOCUMENTS, REVIEW THEM, LOOK AT THEM, AND THEN ONCE EVERYBODY'S HAD TIME TO KIND OF PROCESS AND LEARN ABOUT THESE THINGS, THEN MAYBE WE COULD COME BACK AND TALK AGAIN AND ALSO REVISIT WHAT THE DESIGN GUIDELINES ARE IN OUR CURRENT GUIDELINES TO SUGGEST THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS CHAPTER OF THIS ITEM IS WHAT I'D LIKE TO SUGGEST WE ALLOW THIS. ALL RIGHT. JOANNE ONE FINAL I'M JUST I'M JUST WONDERING WHAT WE DO ABOUT THIS PORCH FLOORING PROBLEM, BECAUSE APPARENTLY THERE IS A HOMEOWNER WHO WANTS TO MOVE AHEAD. SO ARE WE GOING TO TRY TO SPEED UP THIS PROCESS SO WE CAN MAKE A DECISION. WELL, I'M GOING TO REACH OUT TO THAT HOMEOWNER AND SEE IF THAT'S WHAT'S ON THE BACK OF THE PROPERTY AND WOULD THEY ALLOW US TO COME OUT AND VISIT IT, BECAUSE I THINK IF IT, THEN I'M FINE WITH SAYING, YEAH, WE DON'T NEED TO DO A TRIAL HOUSE. LETS JUST SELECT THAT THIS SPECIFIC PRODUCT IS ONE THAT WE'RE OK WITH IF EVERYONE OKS WITH THAT, BECAUSE ANYTHING WE PUT DOWN NEW IS GOING TO LOOK BEAUTIFUL. RIGHT. BUT WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE 10 YEARS FROM NOW? DOES THIS MEAN WE NEED TO PUT THIS ON THE AGENDA FOR OUR NEXT MEETING IN HOPES THAT WE CAN DECIDE I HAVE THERE NUMBER ACTUALLY AND I WAS GOING TO CALL THIS PERSON AND THEN COMMUNICATE THAT BACK TO CATHERINE AND FRED. OK, CONNIE. YEAH, I'M SORRY, COMMISSIONER. YEAH, THERE'S AN ISSUE WITH SCHEDULING A MEETING OUTSIDE. I KNOW WE'RE IN THE ZOOM VIRTUAL IS DIFFERENT, BUT WITH SCHEDULING A MEETING WITH THE COMMISSIONERS OUTSIDE OF CITY HALL OR SOME OTHER SELECTED AVENUE. AND SO THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE A THOUGHTFUL PROCESS IF YOU'RE GOING TO SEE IF THIS PERSON WOULD WOULD OPEN UP THEIR BACKYARD OR WHATEVER. AND AGAIN, EVEN IF THAT IS NOT THE CASE, YOU KNOW, WE STILL HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT WALKING FORMS IN GENERAL. OTHER FOLKS JUST GOING AND VISITING THE PROPERTY IN A GROUP. SO THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE THOUGHTFUL IF THAT COULD EVEN HAPPEN. WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT? LET ME SEND PICTURES BECAUSE DONNA THIS PARTICULAR PROPERTY. IT'S WIDE OPEN IN THE BACK OF THE ALLEY. IT'S ALL PAVED IN. THERE'S ONE DIRECT SET OF STAIRS IN FRONT OF YOU AND THAT DECK IS RIGHT THERE. SO, YOU KNOW, IF CONNIE WOULD LIKE WOULD LIKE TO TAKE CARE OF PROVIDING SOME DOCUMENTATION AND PHOTOGRAPHS TO CATHERINE, AND THEN THEY COULD BE THEN BE DISTRIBUTED TO [01:30:01] US AS IT CAN BE. OK. OK, WELL, I'M JUST THINKING IT'D BE NICE TO MAKE THIS DECISION AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. SO CAN WE PUT IT ON THE AGENDA FOR THE NEXT MEETING? AND THEN IF WE HAVE A MAJOR DECISION, THEN WE CAN TAKE IT OFF, BUT IF WE DON'T. HOW ABOUT CATHERINE, THE PERSON THAT HAS THIS ON THE BACK OF THEIR HOUSE THAT WAS ON THE TOUR IS AN ARCHITECT. AND IF IT IS THIS PRODUCT OR ONE THAT'S ONE THAT'S COMPARABLE TO IT AND IT STILL LOOKS GOOD, THREE OR FOUR YEARS, HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT INVITING HIM BACK TO TALK ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR PRODUCT AS AN ARCHITECT THAT'S USED IT ON HIS HOME? SURE, I THINK THE MORE INFORMATION THAT WE GET IS ALWAYS FOR THE BETTER AND ESPECIALLY SOMEBODY WHO'S USED IT THEMSELVES. THAT WOULD BE GOOD INPUT. AND WE SO FEEL FREE TO SEND ME ANY PHOTOGRAPHS THAT YOU HAVE A IT'S EASILY ACCESSIBLE AND THEY DON'T MIND US COMING THROUGH THE ALLEY TO LOOK AT IT WITHOUT GOING ON THEIR PROPERTY, THEN WE CAN CERTAINLY SEND THAT INFORMATION OUT. ALL RIGHT. THE NEXT LANDMARK IS THE 19TH. I DON'T THINK IT'LL BE READY FOR THE NEXT LANDMARK. SO MAYBE, CATHERINE, WE CAN LOOK AT THE SCHEDULED FOR MAY-ISH. YEAH, I'LL MAKE A NOTE [INAUDIBLE], BUT I THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO GO OUT THERE AND TAKE THOSE PICTURES AND WHAT NOT AND BE ABLE TO PRESENT SOMETHING TO TO THE COMMISSION. I THINK IT'S AN EXCELLENT IDEA. OK, I'LL MAKE CONTACT WITH THEM TODAY, TOMORROW, ASK PERMISSION, ASK WHAT IT IS, ASK PERMISSION, GET THE INFORMATION TO CATHERINE, ASK IF STAFF CAN COME OUT THERE AND TAKE A LOOK AT IT AND TAKE PICTURES AND THEN LET STAFF BRING IT BACK TO US. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING, DONNA? YES, OK. YEAH OK. WHEN DOES WHEN DOES THAT PROPERTY COME BACK TO US TO DECIDE TO BUILD THE MATERIALS FOR THE PORCH IS THAT ON THE 19TH OR IS THAT IN MAY. THAT CASE WAS RESOLVED. SO IT WOULD BE UP TO THE PROPERTY OWNER TO REAPPLY IF THEY WANTED TO TO SEEK ANOTHER APPROVAL? OK, I THOUGHT I WASN'T ALRIGHT DOES ANYBODY ELSE HAVE SOMETHING ELSE THEY WANT TO SHARE OR? IF NOT THEN I WILL CALL FOR AN ADJOURNMENT OF THE MEETING, THANK YOU, EVERYBODY, FOR PARTICIPATING, IT'S BEEN WONDERFUL. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT, BYE BYE. * This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.